ct65as Posted 9 June , 2009 Share Posted 9 June , 2009 My G. Uncle was Frederick William Osmond and I have very little info. about his military service. Medal card-Osmond Fred'k W., N. Staff. R., Pte. 208165. Medal Roll British- F/104 B19, Page 2404, British ditto. When my G. Grandmother wrote her will in September 1918, she said he was serving in India but I have found nothing to indicate that the 7th. North Staffs. were in India. From looking online I see they formed at Lichfield, went to Gallipoli, Egypt and Mesopotamia. I have just read a post mentioning the Weekly Sentinel, is it possible I would find info. about him there, if so, where would I find the Weekly Sentinel? Any help or pointers will be greatly appreciated, thank you, Lynne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kloughnane Posted 9 June , 2009 Share Posted 9 June , 2009 Lynne, You are correct in stating that the 7th North Staffords went from Gallipoli to Mesopotamia, via Egypt. It is possible that you great uncle may have found himself in India if he was wounded, or was maybe lucky enough to be given some leave. If you want to find out more about the battalion's war history, a former adjutant (Capt. L R Missen MC) wrote the book in 1920 and is still available on CD. It is possible that the Weekly Sentinel may have some information, but you have to search for it yourself. The Sentinel archives are at Stoke on Trent and they hold copies on microfilm. If you live near London you will find copies at the British Library at Colindale. The Sentinel carried pages dedicated to "Local men who have answered the call of King and Country". Usually this was a two page spread and consisted of a photo and small paragraph about men who were killed, wounde, missing and sometimes men who were serving. It was the Sentinel that supplied me with the only photograph of my great grandfather. He served with the 7th North Staffords at Gallipoli and was killed in Mesopotamia. Just bear in mind that the photos and information were supplied by the families so you are not guaranteed to find anything. It is also a good idea to have an idea of the dates that you are interested in as it can be a hard slog going through old newspapers, page by page. Good luck. Regards, Kev Loughnane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ct65as Posted 10 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 10 June , 2009 Hi Kev, Thank you for your information. I have no idea when Frederick joined and as I live in the USA I cannot visit the British Library or Stoke On Trent. He was born in Oxford and the last place I have located him, pre-war, is in Chester, Cheshire (he was a jeweller) in the 1911 census. I have one picture of him at his brother's wedding in 1911, so he wouldn't look any different but I am always searching for more. The 7th. N. Staffs. was formed at Lichfield, does that mean the men all joined at Lichfield? Thank you again, I appreciate your help, Lynne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kloughnane Posted 10 June , 2009 Share Posted 10 June , 2009 Lynne, I am not an expert on this subject - I know that there are others on this forum with greater knowledge than I. From what I have read on the 7th North Staffords, most of the volunteers appear to have originated from the Stoke on Trent area. However, I suppose that as the war progressed, men from other regions would have found themselves in the battalion. According to what remains of my great grandfather's army record he enlisted at the recruiting office at Stoke on 12 July 1915. . He was given the service number 17964 - I don't know if any of the forum pals would be able to date your great uncle's number. Another avenue worth checking would be The National Archives at Kew in London. Only about 30% of First World War army records survived the blitz of the Second World War so the chances of finding anything are slim, but it would certainly be worth a look. Obviously a trip to Kew is out of the question for you, but if you want I will take a look the next time I'm there. It may not be for some time yet but if nobody else volunteers beforehand I will be happy to look. With regards to coverage in the Sentinel, I suspect that if your great uncle wasn't local to Stoke or the surrounding area, it's unlikely that they would have included him. I don't know if any of the above helps. Regards, Kev Loughnane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinclift Posted 11 June , 2009 Share Posted 11 June , 2009 Hi Lolo I am also looking at the 7th North Staffs. I have moved my posting to the top so that you can access it with ease Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinclift Posted 11 June , 2009 Share Posted 11 June , 2009 It would be helpful if I told you which one it is: Sjt George Thomas Powell (Basra) Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ct65as Posted 14 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 14 June , 2009 Sorry for the delay in posting this. Thank you Kev. Ancestry does not have his service record so I assume it will not be at National Archives. He may be on an absent voter list for Chester or may already have been living in Preston, Lancs., when he joined, that's where he died, so I will try to track him that way. Thanks again. Martin, you may like to start your own thread for your George Thomas Powell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest staffordshire paul Posted 23 August , 2009 Share Posted 23 August , 2009 Hi everyone my name is Paul and i`m new to this forum, i may be able to answer some of your questions. My grandfather was Harold Walker private 14596 who served with the 7th Service Battallion Prince of Wales North Staffordshire Regiment (full title) .He lived in stoke on Trent when he enlisted in 1914. I think there were many men from the Stoke area in the battallion. The answer to the India mystery is that it was the Indian army (expeditionary force D ) who were sent to Mesopotamia first to capture Basra, the 7th N Staffs joined them in March 1916. They remained with the Indian army in Iraq untill May 1919 but never going to India . My grandfather was speaking the Indian language when he returned after 3 years serving with them, i hope that solves the India mystery. Here is a very brief summary of the 7th north staffs at that time :- 29 Aug 1914 formed at Lichfield attached to 39th brigade,13th division on Salisbury Plain Jan 1915 Basingstoke Feb 1915,Blackdown,Aldershot June 1915 sailed From Avonmouth July 1915 Landed Galllipoli Jan 1916 landed Egypt Feb 1916 landed Mesopotamia Mar 1917 Baghdad Jul 1918 with 39th brigade to North Persia Force Nov 1918 Baku till May 1919. Aug 1918 Baku I was amazed how much more the 7th n staffs had to endure after leaving the hell of Gallipoli ! The conditions in Iraq were appalling whilst marching and fighting nearly 600 miles to Baghdad . It really is the forgotten war not having much written about it and getting the credit it deserves . Hope it helps Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ct65as Posted 4 May , 2010 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2010 Hi Paul, Thank you very much for all the information and I'm sorry it took me so long to reply. It is great to be able to add to what little I know of G Uncle Frederick. Lynne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh Cavalryman Posted 25 May , 2017 Share Posted 25 May , 2017 Hello everyone, Just picking up on this thread. My Great Grandfather William Wilshaw served with 7th Bn North Staffs in Gallipolli Egypt and . His service record says 'Gun shot wound dangerously ill 17 4 16'. Anyone any ideas where the 7th Bn were on or around this date and what was happening?? Baghdad?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeClarke Posted 25 May , 2017 Share Posted 25 May , 2017 (edited) Morning, Prior to below the battalion was in bivouacs at Pallayieh. The War Diary states, "16th - Battalion moved across the river at 5am. Marched to Abu Roman Mounds, and thence relieved battalion of the 3rd Division holding line of piquets opposite to northern ??? of Beit Aiesa position. 17th - Continued holding line of piquets. One officer wounded (died of wounds). Three other ranks wounded." This is the bit I cannot read, Regards, Graeme Edited 25 May , 2017 by GraemeClarke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naught91 Posted 25 May , 2017 Share Posted 25 May , 2017 Looks like "Frontier" or "Front" to me. The 7th Battalion NSR History, written in 1920 by L. R. Missen M.C. states: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh Cavalryman Posted 25 May , 2017 Share Posted 25 May , 2017 great stuff, many thanks. William's service record makes reference to what looks like le BJ Dagshai around the period of his wounding. Its hard to read. There was a British sanitarium at Dagshai for tuberculosis patients but would they really evacuate casualties from Mesopotamia to the Himachal Pradesh??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 26 May , 2017 Admin Share Posted 26 May , 2017 (edited) On 5/25/2017 at 20:57, Welsh Cavalryman said: great stuff, many thanks. William's service record makes reference to what looks like le BJ Dagshai around the period of his wounding. Its hard to read. There was a British sanitarium at Dagshai for tuberculosis patients but would they really evacuate casualties from Mesopotamia to the Himachal Pradesh??? In April 1916 virtually all the wounded in Mesopotamia were evacuated from Basra to India. According to the OH 3,149 of 3,209 British wounded or 98.1% for April 1916. After the fall of Kut there was a hiatus in the campaign and reorganisation of medical services and there were convalescent camps in theatre. Once in India they would be dispersed according to need. I notice the Depot is mentioned on his record (the following entry is the Home Depot i.e. in the UK). The British Regiments in India maintained a Depot strength in India and replacements and the sick would be sent there first before going to Mesopotamia, or in the latter case if unfit home to the UK. I don't know if this is where the 7th North Staffs Depot was located but it was a pre-war garrison barracks. Perhaps Graeme can confirm through the war diary. Ken Edited 26 May , 2017 by kenf48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh Cavalryman Posted 29 May , 2017 Share Posted 29 May , 2017 Hi Ken, many thanks for the reply. Yes, I did wonder if 7 Bn had a 'Depot' type arrangement in India. Pardon my ignorance what is 'OH'? If you have seen his service record what do you make of the possible word 'Dagshai'? Have I got it right or could it be something else. I suppose i should be extremely grateful he had a service record even if the writing is like a doctors prescription!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 29 May , 2017 Admin Share Posted 29 May , 2017 OH = Official History or Medical Services General History: Vol IV: Medical Services During the Operations on the Gallipoli Peninsula; in Macedonia; in Mesopotamia and North-West Persia; in East Africa; in the Aden Protectorate, and in North Russia. Ambulance Transport during the War by W.G. Macpherson & T.J. Mitchell (London: HMSO, 1924) also available online. Links elsewhere on the forum. I would agree 'Dagshai' a hill station and garrison town.The acronym above that is clearly lined to the location has me stumped though 'CBI'? I guess the B could be Base but I can't link it with the C (command?; convalescent?) Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh Cavalryman Posted 29 May , 2017 Share Posted 29 May , 2017 Hi Ken CBI is a ww2 US acronym for China Burma India Theatre. Could have fitted nicely in this context but sadly too early! Thanks for OH definition and reference My research has revealed that on the 12th of February 1916 they moved from their Suez defence task to join the force being assembled near Sheikh Sa'ad for the relief of the besieged garrison at Kut al Amara. They joined the Anglo-Indian Tigris Corps on the 27th of March and were in action in the unsuccessful attempts to relieve Kut in April. Do you know how they got from Suez to Sheikh Sa'ad? Cross country or round the arabian peninsula and up the Tigris by boat? cheers George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 29 May , 2017 Admin Share Posted 29 May , 2017 5 hours ago, Welsh Cavalryman said: Hi Ken My research has revealed that on the 12th of February 1916 they moved from their Suez defence task to join the force being assembled near Sheikh Sa'ad for the relief of the besieged garrison at Kut al Amara. They joined the Anglo-Indian Tigris Corps on the 27th of March and were in action in the unsuccessful attempts to relieve Kut in April. Do you know how they got from Suez to Sheikh Sa'ad? Cross country or round the arabian peninsula and up the Tigris by boat? cheers George The 13th Division landed at Basra (the entry port for the Mesopotamia campaign) between the 27th February and 13 March 1916. As the OH notes a shortage of river transport made it difficult to move Forces forward and a shortage of land transport meant operations could not be conducted far from the Tigris. https://archive.org/details/campaigninmesopo02mobe Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh Cavalryman Posted 29 May , 2017 Share Posted 29 May , 2017 (edited) what a great reference Ken, coupled with the medical reference you've given me they answer all my campaign questions. Many thanks. Clearly access to the 7 Bn NSR War diar and The 7th Battalion NSR History, written in 1920 by L. R. Missen M.C.will be a subsequent aim coupled with trying to find out where the NSR Depot in India might have been. Very grateful for your input, much appreciated Edited 29 May , 2017 by Welsh Cavalryman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh Cavalryman Posted 31 May , 2017 Share Posted 31 May , 2017 (edited) Hi Ken, could I impose on you again to look at William Wilshaw's service record? Its the serial on the 'Statement of Services' page on the line attributed to 13 10 16. Under the Corps/Unit columns it looks like '2.Res 15th' I'm not aware The North Staffs had a 15th Bn. Any Idea what it could be? I'm also a bit confused about when he got shot. The service record says 'Gun shot wound dangerously ill - 17 4 16' yet the service record shows 10 Apr 1916 – Posted (indecipherable Depot) (Assume India) so do you think he actually got shot before the 10 Apr and was potentially in hospital on 17 4 16? In 1899 Dagshai, a well established British Military Cantonment in the SIRHIND DISTRICT, had a barracks (4th Battalion The Rifle Brigade (The Prince Consort’s Own) were there I think at the start of the war) a notorious Jail (now a museum) and a 106 bed hospital. I don't think it would have got smaller in the ww1 years. I climbed a mountain in the Himachal Pradesh back in 1981 and when we came down off the mountain we went from Manali through Simla to Delhi. Just south of Simla we drove past Dagshai. If only I'd known! Reference our previous North Staff in India Depot comments I notice the 2nd Bn NSR were based in Rawalpindi a little way up from Dagshai on the NW Frontier for a large portion of the war. I suppose they could have acted in a Depot capacity? Edited 31 May , 2017 by Welsh Cavalryman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 1 June , 2017 Admin Share Posted 1 June , 2017 I can't really help, I think you have to separate the columns rather than read it as a continuous entry, though trying to guess these entries 100 years on is difficult, however there was a 2nd (Home Garrison) Battalion formed in 1916. This became the 17th Bn Royal Defence Corps later in the war. You're right though there are no surviving records of the 15th Battalion, though there were lots of Home Service Battalions and the North Staffs seems to have had a few! Perhaps the Museum could clarify http://www.staffordshireregimentmuseum.com/research.html I think all you can say with certainty is that he remained at home after being repatriated on the 9th June 1916 and before being transferred to the Labour Corps, where he continued to serve until discharged on 27th March 1919. He was probably in hospital/Command Depot while posted to the 3rd Bn. until October and the mystery posting. As for the date of wounding, without the casualty record it's difficult to be precise but he would have been taken off the effective strength when he entered the casualty evacuation chain. I think the note referring to 'dangerously ill' probably refers to notification of next of kin but that's just speculation. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh Cavalryman Posted 1 June , 2017 Share Posted 1 June , 2017 so reasonable assumptions and good advice there Ken thank you very much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh Cavalryman Posted 30 March , 2018 Share Posted 30 March , 2018 Has anyone found the 7th Bn war diary on ancestry? Could you post a link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepper Posted 30 March , 2018 Share Posted 30 March , 2018 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Welsh Cavalryman said: Has anyone found the 7th Bn war diary on ancestry? Could you post a link? The war diary upto Jan 1916 is at https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60380/42871_1831101456_11698-00001but I don't think the later diaries are on Ancestry Edited 30 March , 2018 by Nepper linked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 30 March , 2018 Admin Share Posted 30 March , 2018 Ancestry only has the war diaries for the Western Front and Gallipoli. The good news is the diary for Mesopotamia 39 Infantry Brigade WO95/5158 has been digitised and is available at TNA for £3.50, albeit in three sections http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_srt=1&_ep=WO+95/5158&_dss=range&_ro=any&_hb=tna Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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