Windmill on the Messines ridge

[Jerrymurland]

Does anyone know the location of the site of the Windmill that featured in the London Scottish attack 31/1st Nov 1914? Some say its where the cross of sacrifice is in the Messines Cemetery.

Jerry

[Ian Riley]

Jerry,

I had always assumed, possibly completely incorrectly, that it was rather near to where the London Scottish memorial (a celtic cross if I recall) is on the road north from Messines.

Ian

[pmaasz]

The London Scottish memorial cross is at the location of the windmill.

The McMaster map library shows the windmill at 28SW. O.32.b.2.6

[BigT]

A few years ago an old friend of mine Pipe Major John Spoore ( ex London Scottish & the late Queen Mothers Piper) wrote a pipe tune " The Burning Mill at Messines". When I saw the thread I contacted him, below is an extract of his email reply.

"At the moment, I together with the London Scottish Museum Curator am trying to solve this riddle. We were always told that the mill was where the London Scottish Memorial is now sited. I don't believe this and have recently been in contact with the current Curator of the Messines Museum, who also has no idea of where the mill was. Some years ago I visited the Messines Museum and with the then Curator, we searched old maps. One map dated 1912 (so before WW1 and the action on the ridge) did NOT show a mill anywhere along the ridge. It did show a symbol that we took to be a mill at Wyjtschaete (the next village to Messines), but too far to the left of the L.S. action and another at Spanbroekmolen, about half a mile or so to the rear of the L.S. position. This is more likely to be "The Mill", but still not certain, I'm still working on it"

[pmaasz]

As I said in my earlier post, the map viewable (but not copiable) on the McMaster map library site shows the mill in question very clearly. That it is the mill is confirmed by the two named farms, also shown on the map, near the mill and just west of the Messines- Wytschaete road. They are Hun's Farm and Middle Farm.

The history of the London Scottish by Mark Lloyd says:

"The London Scottish were sent in to consolidate a dangerous gap in the line and to help the Carabiniers [6th Dragoon Guards] hold the right centre. The position was marked by two farms, later known as Hun's Farm and Middle Farm just west of the road, and by a windmill, which had already sustained severe damage, near the latter."

I don't have the facility of overlaying the trench map with a modern map but perhaps someone on the forum can. Visual inspection of my NGI map of the area places the memorial cross exactly where the windmill symbol on the trench map is located.

[connaughtranger]

There is definitely a windmill symbol on a map dated October 1915 to the east of the Wytschaete-Messines road at O 32 b 2.6 The farm to the north of it on the map is unnamed, only shown as Fme

Martin

[Jerrymurland]

Thanks guys - I don't know where I got the idea the windmill was on the site of the Cross os Sacrifice at Messines Military Cemetery! It stands to reason it was at or near the site of the London Scottish memorial. Having finally found my copy of the WFA disc of Ypres maps it would appear this is so.

Jerry

[gordons]

Thanks guys - I don't know where I got the idea the windmill was on the site of the Cross os Sacrifice at Messines Military Cemetery! It stands to reason it was at or near the site of the London Scottish memorial. Having finally found my copy of the WFA disc of Ypres maps it would appear this is so.

Jerry

Jerry, I appear to stand very much corrected, having now seen a copy of the map of the Messines Ridge (dated 1915 mentioned earlier) and having spoken again to Mr John Wren -The current Curator of The London Scottish Museum. That The Messines Mill was probably on or very near to the site of The London Scottish Memorial. As stated by Trevor (post#4), I had searched old maps for the location of "The Mill" together with the then Curator of the small museum in Messines (now Messen) with negative result. With renewed interest, Mr John Wren, has recently been in contact with Monsieur Marino Mahieu, who's family have farmed that area for over 120 years. Monsieur Mathieu said that at the outbreak of WW1, there were two wind mills in The Village. The one owned by his ancester M'sieur Phillipe, was already about 150 years old. The other mill which dated back to about 1445, was owned and worked by the Convent (which I believe was later to become The Institute Royal de Messines (Koninklijk Gesticht van Mesen -in Flemish). Monsieur Mahieu is certain that The Mill in question was M'sieur Philipe's. Although raised to the ground, it is thought that some timbers were salvaged and were used to repair / rebuild some of his family's farm buildings. John Spoore

[Ian Riley]

As I said in my earlier post, the map viewable (but not copiable) on the McMaster map library site shows the mill in question very clearly. That it is the mill is confirmed by the two named farms, also shown on the map, near the mill and just west of the Messines- Wytschaete road. They are Hun's Farm and Middle Farm.

The map (at least a 1:100000 version, I think, so needs zooming) and links to a couple of Canadian articles now viewable at another thread CLICK

Ian

[Paul Reed]

I am confused as to why this is described "For close to a century, old soldiers debated a mystery".

I researched this back in the early 80s, long before the net and the widespread availability of Great War maps and was able to discover very quickly where it was.

Author Tony Spagnoly first put something into the print on the matter many years ago, and I am sure Rose Coombes did as well.

[Ian Riley]

Paul,

Presumably because the story has passed through the hands of a PR department and then into the hands of a journalist and the resolution of a 'century-old mystery debated by [insert own stereotype]' sells newspapers better (or is at least more interesting to the general public) than 'the problem has been resolved by reference to research done by a distinguished expert 25 years ago' ... sadly.

I was only reflecting in writing a dissertation today how much that I am doing has probably already been done and is lying unread on the shelves of some university library. What is important is that a stalwart of the London Scottish, John Spoore, (who was not convinced of what apparently had transmuted from researched fact to received wisdom) now has, and is satisfied with, the correct answer.

Granted the chap at McMaster was reinventing the millstone but it is only natural that he should use the resources immediately available to him rather than research for previous answers so I don't think any of us are blaming him for hyping the story.

Ian

[zijde26]

this one ?

[Jerrymurland]

Thanks - thats a great photo. much appreciated

Jerry

[frie]

hello,

Great photo but wrong....

[Jerrymurland]

Wrong what? ...place ?

Jerry

[Mark Hone]

I have just returned from Canada where I read the same story in this week's edition of 'Maclean's', the Canadian equivalent of 'Time' magazine. Very interesting, but I was baffled as to why the article was presenting as a mystery something that was as far as I was concerned totally unmysterious! This thread, and the related one, explain the background. The presentation of what amounts to common knowledge as an amazing new discovery is of course a standard feature of TV documentaries on Historical matters these days, as well as press articles. The most egregious recent example was the long drama documentary on the sinking of the Titanic, several of whose 'startling revelations' I distinctly recall featuring in the 1958 film 'A Night to Remember'!

'The Burning Mill at Messines' is my favourite pipe tune, by the way. I have featured it on both occasions that I have visited the London Scottish Memorial on my school battlefields tour. The author Michael Morpurgo chose it as one of his 'Desert Island Discs'. Unfortunately the presenter, Sue Lawley, clearly had no idea what it was about and mispronounced the title.

[frie]

wrong picture...

Tonight I will give more information... because I have reasons to think : at this spot there was no more a windmill in 1914

[frie]

1. no picture available of this mill... pictures of all other windmills and other important buildings (school - church) available but not this one.

(the mill was "Vandevivere's mill'.) There was a mill (also after the war) but not a windmill)

2. In German accounts: the burning mill was "Blauwen molen" aproc 300m south-east.

And : This mills are not "Messines" mills but Wytschaete. The London Scottish were aprox 750m north of Messines at Wytschaete...

[joan bourgeois]

Does anyone know the location of the site of the Windmill that featured in the London Scottish attack 31/1st Nov 1914? Some say its where the cross of sacrifice is in the Messines Cemetery.

Jerry

Exact spot located to-day, and reported in The Globe and Mail, (a Toronto Newspaper)

Joan

[zijde26]

Exact spot located to-day, and reported in The Globe and Mail, (a Toronto Newspaper)

Joan

To Joan,

Can you publish the 'url' of the article ?

Thanks,

[Mark Hone]

The Globe and Mail article is basically the same one that has turned up in various Canadian publications, mentioned in earlier posts (e.g. by me in Post 16). As the discussion on this thread and associated ones makes clear it is based on a misunderstanding/media exaggeration. The exact location of the windmill was established years ago, the McMaster map merely confirms this. See for example Spagnoly and Smith 'Salient Points', pp 100-101 (Pen and Sword Publications 1995).

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nation...article1247577/

[Paul Reed]

Interesting to see that people on that site still maintain it "wasn't known". Being one who fully embraces the net and all it has to offer, I do sometimes wonder what people thought us historians did before Google existed...

[Mark Hone]

Paul-Coincidentally, the same theme emerges from a recent discussion about a hopelessly inaccurate account of Third Ypres, posted on the 'net but apparently written in 1993:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...=130683&hl=

[gordons]

Hi Zijde26, a late query to your posting of the photograph of the Messines (Ouest) windmill. Frie is sure that this is not the Messines Ridge mill and the fact that it is captioned Messines Ouest (which I believe is West) would suggest this. The rest of the caption is not easy to read. Is the caption under the original photo any clearer? I can make out what looks like - Meullin Philipe.......sur le mont Kernnel.

My reason for asking is that the current farmer of the Messines (now Messen) Ridge area, said that his family has farmed that area for over 120 years, his ancester M'sieur Phillipe (coincidence?) owned the Messines Ridge Mill at the outbreak of the Great War.

A note to Jerrymurland, The Commonwealth War Graves Commission site, states that The Cross of Sacrifice in The Messines Ridge War Cemetery, stands on the site of the windmill owned by The Royal Institution of Messines. (The Royal Institution of Messines had until 1776 been a Convent founded by Countess Adele in 1057). John spoore.

[koyli]

This is a photograph of the mill which stood near where now the London Scottish memorial is. The Mill itself stood where there is now a group of buildings south of the memorial which has a hardware shop. After the war another mill driven by dieselmotor was installed.

Regards

lawry