relichunter Posted 2 June , 2009 Share Posted 2 June , 2009 Hi all, My grandfather fought with the 30th US Infantry. He was wounded on October 8, 1918. Can anyone tell me where the 30th may have been on this date? His discharge reads that he fought in the "Somme Offensive". I understand that the 30th was the first unit to break through the Hindenburg Line and they fought at Bellicourt. Any help is appreciated on the 30th. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 2 June , 2009 Share Posted 2 June , 2009 Hi all, My grandfather fought with the 30th US Infantry. He was wounded on October 8, 1918. Can anyone tell me where the 30th may have been on this date? His discharge reads that he fought in the "Somme Offensive". I understand that the 30th was the first unit to break through the Hindenburg Line and they fought at Bellicourt. Any help is appreciated on the 30th. John Hi John Welcome to the forum. The 30th Inf were part of the 3rd "Marne" division and participated in numerous actions in 1918. If you would like I can probably put together a short Order of Battle and list for you. May 31- June 5 the Div operated on the Aisne June 6 - July 14th they were in the Chateay Thierry (Champagne)sector July15-17 Champagne Marne operation July 18-30 Aisne Marne operations - capturing several locations (jaulgonne, , Mont St Pere, Le Charmel, Roncheres July 30 Chateu Thierry (rest) August 14 - Gondrecourt (1st training area) Sept 12-15th - St Mihel (Corps reserve) Sept 26-27th Meuse Argonne Offensive Oct 27/28 withdrawn to Tronnville en Barrois and Tannois for rest. CLICK HERE for the full 3rd div Order of Battle Good accounts of much of this latter period in Lengel's recent book on Meuse Argonne (called "To Conquer Hell). Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 3 June , 2009 Share Posted 3 June , 2009 A bit more: From Orbat 3rd Div Oct 3rd Div attacked NW and advanced 1 km along entire front Oct 5th Div attacks and gains a line from the NE edge of Woods 250 , 300m south of Hill 253 to 1.5 km east of Gesnes Oct 9th the sector is reduced by 1 km on the left (west) by relinquishing the line to 32nd Div Oct 9th Div captures Hill 253, Bois de Cunel and La Mamelle Trench (.5 km south of the road from Bois de Cunel to 1km SE of Romagne -sous-Montfaucon. This should give you a pretty small area to concentrate on. Midway down this REENACTORS PAGE is a potted history of the 30th Infantry in the Great War It includes this relevant section: "On the morning of October 3rd, the 30th Infantry rushed the Southern edge of the Bois de Beuge in support of the 4th Infantry, which occupied the Northern edge of the same woods. When the regiment moved into this position, the woods and area for a kilometer in the rear of it, were being heavily shelled, which resulted in heavy casualties to the regiment. The Regiment was quickly placed into position in a trench along the Southern edge of the woods. The men quickly dug in and were comparatively safe. The 30th Infantry Regiment would remain in this position for next five days and each day suffered a number of casualties. On October 8th, the 30th Infantry Regiment relieved the 4th Infantry in he front line position. Once in position the 30th Infantry established their lines with the U.S. 80th Infantry Division on their right and the 38th Infantry on their left. " Source: http://www.geocities.com/aco_30thir_3rdid/history.html (accessed June 2nd 2009) This document (click click) has some pictures of the wood and the story of a member of the 30th killed on the same day. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 3 June , 2009 Share Posted 3 June , 2009 The 30th U.S. Infantry Division did fight on the Somme in 1918; apparently it was one of the few AEF divisions lent to the BEF. Click here for more information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 3 June , 2009 Share Posted 3 June , 2009 The 30th U.S. Infantry Division did fight on the Somme in 1918; apparently it was one of the few AEF divisions lent to the BEF. Click here for more information. Ahhh I suspect I have committed an error - or there is some confusion. Are we talking 30th Infantry Regiment (me) or 30th Infantry Division (Pete?) if the latter please ignore my drivel above! Here is the summarised Orbat (30th DIV): Order of Battle and Unit History Summarized from AEF Order of Battle Vol2 AEF Forces Divisions 30th ("Old Hickory") Division ORGANIZATION AND MOVEMENT OVERSEAS July 18, 1917-June 25, 1918 JULY 18-The War Department designated National Guard troops of North Carolina, South Carolina and Tennessee to form t he 30th Division, National Guard. AUGUST 3——Concentration of the Division at Camp Sevier, Greenville, South Carolina began. OCTOBER- In Oct. selective service men from Camps Gordon, Jackson and Pike completed the Division. MAY 1, 1918-D. H. Q. and the Infantry left Camp Sevier, the 59th Brigade to Camp Mills and the 60th Brigade to Camp Merritt. MAY 7—Advance Detachment sailed from New York. MAY 11-19-D. H. Q. and the Infantry sailed from New York and Hoboken. MAY 18-—·The 55th Field Arty. Brigade moved from Camp Sevier to Camp Mills. JUNE 25-—Last unit landed in England. Troops landed in England from where, after a brief stay, the infantry proceeded to Calais and the Artillery to Le Havre. Composition 117th Infantry 59th Infantry Brigade 118th Infantry 114th Machine Gun Battalion 119th Infantry 60th Infantry Brigade 120th Infantry 115th Machine Gun Battalion 113th Field Artillery 55th Field Arty. Brigade 114th Field Artillery 115th Field Artillery 105th Trench Mortar Battery 113th Machine Gun Battalion Divisional Troops 105th Engineers 105th Field Signal Battalion Headquarters Troop 105th Train Hdqts. and Military Police 105th Ammunition Train Trains 105th Supply Train 105th Engineer Train 105th Sanitary Train OPERATIONS OVERSEAS May 27-November 11, 1918 MAY 27-AUGUST 18—Division trained with the British in Picardy and Flanders. May 27-June 17—Division (less Artillery, 105th Supply Train and 105th Sanitary Train) arrived in the Recques Training Area, between Calais and St. Omer, for training with the British 39th Division. June 13-21--The 55th Field Arty. Brigade and 105th Ammunition Train arrived at Le Havre and proceeded to Camp Coetquidan for training. June 22-—-The 105th Sanitary Train arrived at Calais and June 30 the 105th Supply train arrived at Cherbourg. Both proceeded to the 17th (Fays-Billot) Training Area. July 16-Aug. 18-——The Division (less Artillery and 105th Supply Train) affiliated with the British, participated in the occupation of the Canal Sector (Canal d’Ypres, Flanders). AUG. 19—SEPT. 4--Division participated in the Ypres-Lys Operation. Aug. 26-Sept. 11-—·-The 55th F. A. Brigade and 105th Ammunition Train participated in the occupation of the Lucey Sector with the 89th Division. Sept. 1-The Division captured Moated Grange, Voormezeele Lock No. 8 and Lankhof Ferme. SEPTEMBER 5-6-—The Division was concentrated near Proven and moved to the St. Pol Area for training. SEPT. 12-15-The 55th F. A. Brigade and 105th Ammunition Train participated in the St. Mihiel Operation, supporting the 89th Division. SEPTEMBER 17-18—Division moved to the Puchevillers (British3rd Army) Area. SEPTEMBER 23-25—The 55th F. A. Brigade and 105th Ammunition Train participated in the occupation of the Avocourt Sector with the 37th Division. SEPT. 22-OCT. 20———Division (less Artillery and 105th Supply Train) participated in the Somme Offensive Operation.Sept. 21-24-——Division moved to the Tincourt—Bouchly Area. Sept. 26—Oct. 8-The 55th F. A. Brigade and 105th Ammunition Train participated in the Meuse-Argonne Operation sup porting the 37th and 32nd Divisions. · Sept. 26-27-—Division attacked between La Haute-Bruyere and Malakoff Ferme. Sept. 29—Division broke through the Hindenburg Line, crossed the canal tunnel and captured Bellicourt and Nauroy. Oct. 1—2-—Division moved to the Herbicourt and Mesnil—Bruntel Areas. Oct. 8—Division captured Brancourt—le-Grand and Premont.Oct. 9—The 60th Infantry Brigade captured Busigny and Becquigny Oct. 11-Nov. 11-The 55th F. A. Brigade and 105th Ammunition Train participated in the occupation of the Troyon Sector with the 79th and 33rd Divisions. Oct. 11——Division occupied Vaux—Andigny, La Haie-Menneresse and reached St. Martin—Riviere. Oct. 17——Division crossed La Selle River and captured Morlain. Oct. 18——Division occupied Ribeauville. OCT. 20~—23—Division moved to Tincourt-Boucly and Roisel. OCT. 23—Division moved to the Querrieu Area for rehabilitation. Division spent 56 days in active sectors (none in quiet sectors) and suffered casualties of 1,629 killed and 7,325 wounded. POST·ARMISTICE ACTIVITIES November 12, 1918-May 7, 1919 NOV. 19—-Division (les Artillery) moved to the American Ekm barkation Center, Le Mans. DEC. 6·—The 55th F. A. Brigade and 105th Ammunition Train moved to Mersch, Luxemburg with the 33rd Division. JAN. 20 1919, the Artillery returned to the Division. FEBSIS-—-The 105th T. M. Battery sailed from Brest for the United States. MARCH 4-—The Division moved to St. Nazaire. MARCH 6——Leading elements sailed. APRIL 18-Last units arrived at Charleston, S. C. Demobilization at Fort Oglethorpe and Camp Jackson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken S. Posted 3 June , 2009 Share Posted 3 June , 2009 Hi all, My grandfather fought with the 30th US Infantry. He was wounded on October 8, 1918. Can anyone tell me where the 30th may have been on this date? His discharge reads that he fought in the "Somme Offensive". I understand that the 30th was the first unit to break through the Hindenburg Line and they fought at Bellicourt. Any help is appreciated on the 30th. John Perhaps this would be of interest: http://www.warfoto.com/30inf.htm Have you tried to find out if there is a regimental history? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMcCulloch Posted 3 June , 2009 Share Posted 3 June , 2009 The 30th U.S. Infantry Regiment was part of the small U.S, Regular Army. Constituted in 1901 at Fort Logan, Colorado then the Presidio in CA. (March/April:1901) and lastly the Philippines (Landed @ April). Fought in Mindano in the Philippine Insurrection: 1901. It was assigned on November 21, 1917 to the 3rd Division. Served in France: All three battalions received these campaign clasps: Aisne,Champagne-Marne, Aisne-Marne, St. Mihiel, Meuse-Argonne,Champagne:1918. The regiment received a French Croix de Guerre with Palm battle streamer embroidered "Champagne-Marne". It served as occupation troops in Germany in 1919. On Oct. 8th, 1918 the regiment was in the Bois de Beuge. On the morning of the 8th (Tuesday) the regiment relieved the 4th infantry in the front line occupying the sector of the Cunel-Nantillois road and the eastern half of the Bois de Beuge-Bois de Cunel. They had dug in on the slopes of the woods and come under heavy shell fire daily. Your grandpa was almost certainly wounded by German shrapnel I have the 3rd ID's book. What was your Grandfathers' name? It lists (some) WIA etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 3 June , 2009 Share Posted 3 June , 2009 So John, (original post) Are we talking 30th Infantry Regiment or 30th Infantry Division? I suspect with mention of the Somme then Pete is correct and it is the latter. however: If 30th Infantry Regiment then your grandfather was probably wounded in the vicinity of the Bois de Beuge (Beuge Wood) If 30th Infantry Division then your grandfather was probably wounded in the vicinity of Brancourt-le-Grand and Premont Hope this helps, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relichunter Posted 3 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 3 June , 2009 The 30th U.S. Infantry Regiment was part of the small U.S, Regular Army. Constituted in 1901 at Fort Logan, Colorado then the Presidio in CA. (March/April:1901) and lastly the Philippines (Landed @ April). Fought in Mindano in the Philippine Insurrection: 1901. It was assigned on November 21, 1917 to the 3rd Division. Served in France: All three battalions received these campaign clasps: Aisne,Champagne-Marne, Aisne-Marne, St. Mihiel, Meuse-Argonne,Champagne:1918. The regiment received a French Croix de Guerre with Palm battle streamer embroidered "Champagne-Marne". It served as occupation troops in Germany in 1919. On Oct. 8th, 1918 the regiment was in the Bois de Beuge. On the morning of the 8th (Tuesday) the regiment relieved the 4th infantry in the front line occupying the sector of the Cunel-Nantillois road and the eastern half of the Bois de Beuge-Bois de Cunel. They had dug in on the slopes of the woods and come under heavy shell fire daily. Your grandpa was almost certainly wounded by German shrapnel I have the 3rd ID's book. What was your Grandfathers' name? It lists (some) WIA etc. My grandfather was wounded by shell fire. He told me he was hit when a motar shell landed between the tripod legs of the machine gun he was firing. He said it buried him up to his neck. It killed the people around him. His name was Thomas F. Rider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 3 June , 2009 Share Posted 3 June , 2009 Relichunter, was your grandfather in the 30th Infantry Regiment or the 30th Infantry Division? If the discharge says Somme Offensive then I think he was in the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relichunter Posted 3 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 3 June , 2009 So John, (original post) Are we talking 30th Infantry Regiment or 30th Infantry Division? I suspect with mention of the Somme then Pete is correct and it is the latter. however: If 30th Infantry Regiment then your grandfather was probably wounded in the vicinity of the Bois de Beuge (Beuge Wood) If 30th Infantry Division then your grandfather was probably wounded in the vicinity of Brancourt-le-Grand and Premont Hope this helps, Chris Hi Chris, Thanks for the info. He was in the 30th Infantry Division. He told me he was wounded by a german motar shell when it went off between the tripod legs of the machine gun he was firing at the time. Do you know of any medals this unit may have won. Grandad did receive the purple heart for his wound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relichunter Posted 3 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 3 June , 2009 Relichunter, was your grandfather in the 30th Infantry Regiment or the 30th Infantry Division? If the discharge says Somme Offensive then I think he was in the division. Hi Pete, He was in the 30th Infantry division. I told Chris he ws wounded by a german motar shell that he said landed between the tripod legs of the machine gun he was firing at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 3 June , 2009 Share Posted 3 June , 2009 Hi Pete, He was in the 30th Infantry division. I told Chris he ws wounded by a german motar shell that he said landed between the tripod legs of the machine gun he was firing at the time. Hurrah! 30th Div. OK then - the information Pete provided (and the abbreviated orbat I posted) for the 30th Div are a good start and my estimation is that your grandfather was probably wounded in the vicinity of Brancourt-le-Grand and Premont as this is the area in which the 30th Div were fighting on Oct 8th. and I think THIS (CLICK HERE FOR MAP) is the area. (Premont is NNE of Brancourt) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 3 June , 2009 Share Posted 3 June , 2009 Glad that's settled! Chris, guys like you from Illinois need reminding from time to time that the BEF, with augmentation such as the 30th U.S. Infantry Division, made a major contribution to the outcome of the war. In fact, I doubt that America could have won the war without substantial British help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 June , 2009 Share Posted 4 June , 2009 Glad that's settled! Chris, guys like you from Illinois need reminding from time to time that the BEF, with augmentation such as the 30th U.S. Infantry Division, made a major contribution to the outcome of the war. In fact, I doubt that America could have won the war without substantial British help! Sheesh and there was me thinking that it was the 33rd Div (151st Inf) along with the Australians who set the scene for "The Day We Won the War" on the Somme in 1918 (with apologies to Charles Messenger) Maybe you could visit and describe me as "from Illinois" to my neighbours - to whom I am .... that guy who talks funny! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relichunter Posted 4 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 4 June , 2009 Hurrah! 30th Div. OK then - the information Pete provided (and the abbreviated orbat I posted) for the 30th Div are a good start and my estimation is that your grandfather was probably wounded in the vicinity of Brancourt-le-Grand and Premont as this is the area in which the 30th Div were fighting on Oct 8th. and I think THIS (CLICK HERE FOR MAP) is the area. (Premont is NNE of Brancourt) Chris He was with the 117th infantry, 30th division. If that will help pinpoint. I have been searching for a map that gives the actual units where they were. but have not been able to find one yet. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 June , 2009 Share Posted 4 June , 2009 He was with the 117th infantry, 30th division. If that will help pinpoint. I have been searching for a map that gives the actual units where they were. but have not been able to find one yet. John John I do not think that there was actually a unit history for the 117th written, however if you can get hold of a copy of "Knox County in the World War" (An Honor Roll book) there is apparently a short unit history (with two maps) in it. This is available for purchase with a collection of other 30th Div books etc from a vendor in the US who sells CDs of scanned books and documents related to WWI. I have not dealt with them but they have an impressive selection and trade as "The Digital Bookshelf" the reference for the 30th Div CD of books is DR_30_2. (it also contains three other items related to the 117th - a 30 page account of Co.K, a roster of one of the companies and some letters of men serving.) However, I think THIS SITE-click click has actually transcribed the Knox County book account of the 117th - but not the maps! (although there are photos). If your grandfather was from Knox county then you might be able to search for his mini-bio HERE click click (from the same publication) Hope this helps, I'll have a look through some of my stuff to see if I can find a more precise map although getting below divisional level is often tough unless there is a study of the particular engagement somewhere. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 June , 2009 Share Posted 4 June , 2009 Well here you go - best I can manage. It would appear that the 117th were on the left of the 30th Div advance and involved in the fightingaround / taking of Premont on the 7th-8th of October. There is a monument to the 117th in the town. Please see attached map. Hope this helps. You might get a more detailed map in the Official 30th Division: Operations in the Great War, but I do not have a copy of that. This map is from the ABMC "Guide to American Battlefields in Europe" Chris This is farmland today (as would be expected) the upper boundary of the area appears to be the modern D932. The whole area in question is bounded by the D932 to the north, the D960 to the west and a small road named Rue de Largilliere / Rue de Premont that runs from Brancourt to Premont. I would suggest it is somewhere in this area, probably closest to the D932 (Bellicourt-Le Cateau Road on the above map) that your grandfather was wounded. Link to modern satellite viewof the area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relichunter Posted 4 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 4 June , 2009 Thanks alot Chris. I'm finally getting to see (on a map) where he fought and was wounded. He told me some of the stories about the war when I was a little boy and I always wondered where these places were. Maybe someday I can see them in person. I will look into the Knox County book. He was from Polk County but may they can put me onto something. Thanks again for all your help! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 June , 2009 Share Posted 4 June , 2009 Thanks alot Chris. I'm finally getting to see (on a map) where he fought and was wounded. He told me some of the stories about the war when I was a little boy and I always wondered where these places were. Maybe someday I can see them in person. I will look into the Knox County book. He was from Polk County but may they can put me onto something. Thanks again for all your help! John John, You are very welcome - assuming this is Polk Co. Tn, there is a list of all WWI veterans from the county available HERE It doesn't have any details really but you may be able to find his name. This is taken fron the site's main page "The data contained in this site was taken from Record Group 36, the compiled service records of soldiers and sailors who served in the First World War from Tennessee. Information on individual servicemen and women came from the files of Major Rutledge Smith, Chairman of the National Council of Defense for Tennessee, World War I; from the office of the Adjutant General of Tennessee, 1933-1937; and from the report of the Provost Marshal General to the Secretary of War, 1917-1918. The records were compiled pursuant to Senate Joint Resolution No. 76, Public Acts of 1919, and were received and stored by the Tennessee State Library and Archives in accordance with Chapter No. 301, Public Acts of 1937. They also include information about those who were killed in service. Further information about their deaths can be found in the Gold Star records at the State Library and Archives. The fields show--in order from left to right--the serviceman's name, age or year of birth, birthplace, notes, and page number in the original volume. The data is arranged by county. It should be noted that additional information regarding the soldier's rank, training, dates of service, discharge, etc. can be obtained from the microfilmed records in Record Group 36. Copies of an individual service record, as well as copies and searches of other World War I collections, can be ordered from TSLA. For ordering instructions, please see the web page for ordering military records by mail. " THIS IS THE LINK TO GET A COPY OF THE RECORDS IF YOU CAN FIND HIS NAME (and if they have them - its always hit and miss) Do you have a copy of his draft card (assuming he was drafted) if not if you post his name I might be able to find it for you. It won't tell you much but it is sometimes interesting to see! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relichunter Posted 4 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 4 June , 2009 His name was Thomas Fredmont Rider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 June , 2009 Share Posted 4 June , 2009 His name was Thomas Fredmont Rider. GOOD NEWS! He is on the list.... Rider Thomas F. 19 Copperhill, TN Wounded p43 So now if you follow the link I provided above, to the TN State Library archives - you should be able to get copies of what they have. There seems to be a copy fee - less if you are a TN resident yourself. I have not (as yet) been able to find a draft card for hin. Chris In Jan 1920 when the census was conducted he was in Camp Upton NY, here is his census entry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relichunter Posted 4 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 4 June , 2009 Yes that is what his discharge says. He re-enlisted in April 1919 and was discharged a second time for "reduction of the army" in 1921 at the rank of corporal. His discharge shows him at Ft. Slocum, New York. It also shows he was AWOL 2 different times. HA HA It also shows they gave him 66.76 for travel pay to Blairsville, GA. It was signed by Captain Douglas E. Morrison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 5 June , 2009 Share Posted 5 June , 2009 Good job, Chris. Relichunter couldn't ask for more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 5 June , 2009 Share Posted 5 June , 2009 I understand that the 30th was the first unit to break through the Hindenburg Line and they fought at Bellicourt. Any help is appreciated on the 30th. Hi John. A brief synopsis of the battle. HINDENBERG LINE (29 Sep -3 Oct 1918). The American 27 and 30 Divisions, under command of the Australian Corps for the battle, led the attack to capture the Hindenburg Line on a 7.3km frontage from S of Bellicourt and N to Vendhuille (which was actually in the Hindenburg Outpost Line in the N) and then were to push through to capture a line running from Gouy in the N to W of Estrees and Joncourt in the S. 27 Div in the N and 30 Div in the S. The Australian 3rd and 5th Divisions were to follow them and undertake the second phase of the attack and capture the Beaurevoir Line from roughly W of Beaurevoir to E of Estrees and Joncourt and about 4.5km behind the Hindenburg Line. They were then were to push on and take Beaurevoir. In the event the Americans advanced and in their enthusiam failed to mop up and became cut off. The Australian divisions had to fight through to the Americans, mopping up as they went. They then continued with phase two of the attack. They captured the Beaurevoir Line but failed to capture Beaurevoir itself, 3km further to the E. The 30th US Division was not the first unit to actually break into the Hindenburg Line. The first units to break into it were the 4th and 12th Brigades of the 4th Australian Division at Bullecourt, SE of Arras, on 11 April 1917. It was a hastily conceived attack ordered by Gough. They attacked at 0445 without artillery support, as tanks were supposed to support them but broke down, They broke through and captured the second line of German defences. Germans mounted heavy counter attacks and came in from the flanks. With no support and with the threat of being cut off they withdrew to their own start line that evening with heavy casualties. On 3rd May 1917 the 2nd Australian Division captured the same portion of the Hindenburg Line and over the next week repulsed heavy German counter attacks and held the line. Also British Divisions either side of the Americans/Australians broke into the Hindenburg Line on 29 Sep 1918 including a brilliant attack across the steep slopes of the St Quentin canal by the British 46th Division S of the Americans. The Americans and Australians attacked across the area where the canal went through a tunnel. The British 32nd Division also attacked the Beaurevoir Line S of 5th Australian Division. Hope this helps as there is not much written on it other than in Official Histories. Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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