Paul Nixon Posted 2 June , 2009 Share Posted 2 June , 2009 Has anybody seen this? Either the reprints or the originals? I'm a little tempted but Naval & Military Press's review of their reprint gives nothing away about the content. Here's what their blurb (which is mostly waffle) says: "The Territorial Army was the brainchild of R.B.Haldane, the Liberal politician who is recognised by historians as Britain’s most effective and efficient War Minister. In the run-up to the Great War, military opinion formers such as Rudyard Kipling and Lord Roberts, became concerned that the regular British Army, with an establishment of just 100,000 men, then as now had become prone to ‘over stretch’. It was expected both to guard and garrison the far-flung British Empire - then comprising a quarter of the Globe - as well as being ready to deploy in Europe against the growing threat of German expansion. Unlike her European rivals, Britain had no tradition of conscription to make up this shortfall in numbers. Haldane’s innovative answer was the Territorial Army - a force of part-time ‘citizen soldiers’ who would retain their place in civilian life, but would train and serve alongside the regulars, and be ready to be instantly deployed in the increasingly likely event of war. The ‘Terriers’ more than proved their worth when the Great War broke out only seven years after Haldane had introduced them in 1907, bridging the gap between the destruction of the old regular Army in 1914 and the arrival of the volunteer New Armies on the Somme in mid-1916. "This handsome four-volume descriptive account of the part-time soldiers by military writer Walter Richards, was published just before the Great War. It has the advantage of 32 full-page colour plate illustrations of uniforms by R. Caton Woodville, recognised as Britain’s foremost military uniform artist of the era." All well and good, but what does Walter Richards actually say about the Territorial Army and how comprehensive is the work? What's the format? Which units are covered? Does anybody have any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 2 June , 2009 Share Posted 2 June , 2009 Paul, I can't answer your question, but I was wondering the same thing. It looks very nice, but it's a reasonable sum to run past the Exchequer (Mrs B ) without knowing more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 2 June , 2009 Share Posted 2 June , 2009 Same opinion as both of you gentleman but took a punt and ordered it anyway - for the Caton Woodville prints if nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 2 June , 2009 Share Posted 2 June , 2009 Well, you can tell us all about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Nixon Posted 2 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 2 June , 2009 Well, you can tell us all about it. Yes, I'd be interested to hear your opinion in due course and maybe - if it doesn't damage the volumes - see a sample scan of one or two pages of text. I did notice that the originals go for obscene prices that make 45 quid seem like a steal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 2 June , 2009 Share Posted 2 June , 2009 If and when they turn up I will keep you chaps in mind. Mind you, I have just finished reading "England's Last Hope". Expensive but I reckon worth it to show just how the TF was "managed" for want of a better word between 1908 and 1914. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tintin1689 Posted 2 June , 2009 Share Posted 2 June , 2009 I used to use these volumes a lot in the National Army Museum library The question as to how good they are depends on what you are looking for. They detail TA units county by county in alphabetical order as described in the Territorial Association title (so Hampshire is under Southampton) The illustrations are superb It is good also on units that wore full dress different to their parent The detailing of sub-unit locations, what I primarily used them for, is very comprehensive and useful On the minus side there is quite a bit of somewhat florid prose and extraneous details about ancient history of the counties and their warriors. The stuff on the units varies, but is usually quite good. What I think they did was write to all the adjudants and work on what came back. It is probably one of the best places to start if you want to look into a specific unit. What puts the price up on originals is the plates (which are often removed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Nixon Posted 2 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 2 June , 2009 If and when they turn up I will keep you chaps in mind. Mind you, I have just finished reading "England's Last Hope". Expensive but I reckon worth it to show just how the TF was "managed" for want of a better word between 1908 and 1914. You've just reminded me of another "want". Thanks... I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Nixon Posted 2 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 2 June , 2009 I used to use these volumes a lot in the National Army Museum library The question as to how good they are depends on what you are looking for. They detail TA units county by county in alphabetical order as described in the Territorial Association title (so Hampshire is under Southampton) The illustrations are superb It is good also on units that wore full dress different to their parent The detailing of sub-unit locations, what I primarily used them for, is very comprehensive and useful On the minus side there is quite a bit of somewhat florid prose and extraneous details about ancient history of the counties and their warriors. The stuff on the units varies, but is usually quite good. What I think they did was write to all the adjudants and work on what came back. It is probably one of the best places to start if you want to look into a specific unit. What puts the price up on originals is the plates (which are often removed). Thanks for your review. I presume the sub-locations are the same as those noted in Ray Westlake's The Territorial Force 1914, albeit this book we're talking about was published in 1910 and so some locations may be (but probably aren't) different. It looks as though I'm going to have to bite the bullet I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 2 June , 2009 Share Posted 2 June , 2009 I agree with the review: a fascinating vignette of a byegone era, and worth the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wienand Drenth Posted 10 June , 2009 Share Posted 10 June , 2009 I am the lucky owner of an original set with all the plates! It cost me a small fortune but I was (still am) happy with it. As TinTin wrote, the information on units and sub-units is generally ok, and gave me a very good starting point for researching the beginnings of the TF. But given the various changes and realignments in the TF following its creation in 1908, it is worth the effort checking details against the London Gazette or the Territorial Year Book to get a complete picture. I cannot comment on the correctness of the information on the earlier periods. Nevertheless, it is a very nice set of books, if only for the martial representation of the TF on the plates and well worth the investment. Wienand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Nixon Posted 11 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 11 June , 2009 Thanks gents, for your responses. I've added this to my mental wants list (along with England's Last Hope, thanks to Squirrel's suggestion, and also the 1908 TF and County Association regulations). There, how to blow a hundred quid in three easy steps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 11 June , 2009 Share Posted 11 June , 2009 Please give my apologies to your wallet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Nixon Posted 11 June , 2009 Author Share Posted 11 June , 2009 Please give my apologies to your wallet! A worthy investment I'm sure. I could probably order through the inter-library loan but it wouldn't reach India until about 2038. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 13 December , 2009 Share Posted 13 December , 2009 Squirrel Has it arrived yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 14 December , 2009 Share Posted 14 December , 2009 Turned up within a couple of weeks IIRC - Tintin's review Post #7 is spot on. "On the minus side there is quite a bit of somewhat florid prose and extraneous details about ancient history of the counties and their warriors." This can take you unawares but worth the money IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 14 December , 2009 Share Posted 14 December , 2009 Thanks squirrel. Worth getting it then! There's some nuts on the bar in Skindles for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 14 December , 2009 Share Posted 14 December , 2009 Thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 22 October , 2016 Share Posted 22 October , 2016 This Caton Woodville plate ... ... apparently appears on p.82 of Volume III. It shows representatives of three of the London Regiment County of London battalions (i.e. 9/LR onwards). The chap in the centre is definitely 28/LR (Artists' Rifles). The chap in drab on the left has blackened buttons and a curved shoulder title, but that doesn't exactly help with a London Regiment battalion! I think the chap on the right is 16/LR (Queen's Westminster Rifles), but there is also a suggestion he may be 13/LR (Kensingtons). Could some kind Pal who is lucky enough to own this book have a look and see if the plate is captioned with information on the battalions shown please? I'd also be very grateful for any information on the full dress uniform of the 13/LR (Kensingtons). I'm trying to determine whether they wore the home service helmet or a rifle busby. Help much appreciated Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 23 October , 2016 Share Posted 23 October , 2016 Nothing in the book to say which regiment is which in the illustrations of the County of London Regiments. According to the book entry for the 13th Londons, both of the Volunteer units which formed the 13th Londons were styled as Rifles, 2nd Middlesex and 4th Middlesex (West London Rifles). The book also refers to the 13th being a "grey" line battalion and the senior battalion of the 4th London - the grey - Brigade of the 2nd Division in the London District Command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 24 October , 2016 Share Posted 24 October , 2016 Frogsmile has done some further digging and the Kensingtons (or strictly speaking its antecedents) went from shako to home service helmet and never wore a rifle busby. The chap in Elcho grey and rifle busby above must therefore be 16/LR (QWR) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 24 October , 2016 Share Posted 24 October , 2016 (edited) While we're about it, if none of the London Regiment battalions are explicitly identified in the Caton Woodville plates, it would be great if we can do so ourselves between us. These are the three plates ... The left hand one is City of London battalions, the other two are County of London. Edit: since it makes much more sense to discuss uniforms in detail over on the Uniforms sub-forum, I have moved the content which originally followed this post to a linked Topic over there and I suggest we post any further updates there. It's London Regt battalions full dress uniforms - Caton Woodville plates Mark Edited 29 October , 2016 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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