dave.ib_walker@ntlworld.co Posted 28 May , 2009 Share Posted 28 May , 2009 Evening all. I am aware that criticising militaria sales on eBay is getting a little commonplace (caveat emptor, no-one is forced to buy etc), and that the topic of selling relics has been covered before, but I just came across an example of hypocrisy that left me speechless. No details of vendor or item for obvious reasons, but draw your own conclusions from the following phrase (copied verbatim): "THEY HAVE COME FROM THE BATTLEFIELD AND FROM THE FALLEN, AND DESERVE THE UPMOST RESPECT, AS WE CAN ASSUME WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT THESE MEN PERISHED AND POSSIBLY KILLED ONE ANOTHER. THEY ARE BOTH MUSEUM QUALITY AND ARE ORIGINAL!" "Utmost respect" obviously includes flogging off stuff you've dug up on your hols! And "museum quality" clearly means "won't survive the journey through the post". Yours for a starting price of 30 klebs (I'm sure you'll find it if you want it!). Perhaps I really am just too sensitive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 28 May , 2009 Share Posted 28 May , 2009 For the interested, the ebay items can be traced though this number - 120426181690. The seller seems to struggle with the English language but he is obviously trying to get his items taken seriously. Most people would take the term 'Museum quality' to mean near mint items, unless of course it is a collection of dug up items found in a museum, such as in the L'Historial at Peronne. Dug up items are found in many museums and some small museums are proud to display them. The morals of selling battlefield relics has been debated many times on the forum, sometimes with mud slinging and name calling. It's all a bit pointless and gets nowhere. Gunner Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett361975 Posted 29 May , 2009 Share Posted 29 May , 2009 Grave Robbery and Immoral, to collect is one thing, to dig it up and sell it for a profit iS wrong. My two pennies worth ! Regards Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob B Posted 29 May , 2009 Share Posted 29 May , 2009 This is where I suggest we follow the end of Range drills with a "Stop unload - pick up weapons and dress off the firing point" this subject always becomes heated. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 29 May , 2009 Share Posted 29 May , 2009 Its the bit about being dug up from the 'Northern' Trench in Thiepval Wood that disturbs me. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MACRAE Posted 29 May , 2009 Share Posted 29 May , 2009 Its the bit about being dug up from the 'Northern' Trench in Thiepval Wood that disturbs me. Mick Is that not a protected area ?. If so by his own admission is he guilty of selling stolen property ? Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett361975 Posted 29 May , 2009 Share Posted 29 May , 2009 I have no problem with "PICK UP" items; I often watch the items posted on here for identification. The difference being that on here the items are identified for the knowledge and purpose of all who use the forum. Safety has always been paramount with these posts. What I do object to is DUG UP items. The remains of the fallen still litter these fields so to dig something up is the same as digging up a graveyard in my opinion. To sell the items on for profit is morally wrong, the more people that buy these items the more will be dug up. Let the dead lie in peace. Keep your weapons pointing down the range For inspection port arms Safety catch, working parts to the rear Clear..ease springs State the necessary declaration .. Sir I have no live rounds, blank rounds, empty cases, pyrotechnics or parts thereof in my possession Sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 29 May , 2009 Share Posted 29 May , 2009 The remains of the fallen still litter these fields so to dig something up is the same as digging up a graveyard in my opinion. This is an exaggeration. I have walked quite a few fields on the Somme and have only ever found one small piece of bone, which may not even have been human. Littered they are not. Also if it was a graveyard would the state let people farm it? Most things are found on the surface by field walkers and only a few people resort to digging. In many cases farmers plough up things and they get onto the market that way. I met a man earlier this year who had been offered a complete Vickers MG and tripod by a farmer who had ploughed it up that week. Many other items are picked up with the crops and are found by the farm workers as they sort potatoes, beet and other root crops. There is very little digging, most finds come from locals who are often dirt poor and these finds give them some welcome income. To imply that these relics get to the market via hoards of grave robbers is totally inaccurate, unfair and complete distortion. I agree with Rob B. This discussion will get heated too quickly, mainly because people write about their emotions and not the facts. Gunner Bailey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 29 May , 2009 Share Posted 29 May , 2009 Hello, Last week a farmer showed me a bucket full of bullets he had found the last years on his land. Not one hair on my head thinking of doing this, but it would be easy to sell these bullets on EBAY, labelled as having been found at Thiepval Wood. It is all about gaining money, and lack of respect for the eventual buyer, who is misled. Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 29 May , 2009 Share Posted 29 May , 2009 Well if a "dug up"item denies my Uncle an individual grave,I be would angry,but I have to accept that he may lie in a mass Grave. Whether, in is passing he divested himself of Kit,which is now being "dug-up",is irrelevant,to his suffering,prior to death. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 29 May , 2009 Share Posted 29 May , 2009 I pick bits up, sometimes I put them back down again sometimes I don't, the majority of pieces such as items of personal kit were probably attached to someone at the time of his death and are held with awe and respect. As John says, regardless of what rumours you hear and swear are true, there are not remains littered everywhere, yes you may come across a vertebrae or a limb bone or in the case of Hawthorn Ridge, teeth and everyone seems to have a story of picking up a boot and bones dropping out (which is b*llox, who these days finds a complete boot?). There is one particular 'character' who stirs up guests late at night with stories of desecration and finding bones piled by the side of roads, absolute tosh. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 29 May , 2009 Share Posted 29 May , 2009 I pick bits up, sometimes I put them back down again sometimes I don't, the majority of pieces such as items of personal kit were probably attached to someone at the time of his death and are held with awe and respect. As John says, regardless of what rumours you hear and swear are true, there are not remains littered everywhere, yes you may come across a vertebrae or a limb bone or in the case of Hawthorn Ridge, teeth and everyone seems to have a story of picking up a boot and bones dropping out (which is b*llox, who these days finds a complete boot?). There is one particular 'character' who stirs up guests late at night with stories of desecration and finding bones piled by the side of roads, absolute tosh. Mick Mick has more experience of this than I do but it is important to know the facts and separate them from the emotions. These are farmers fields where historic events took place. They are not graveyards full of complete bodies. Yes remains may be there but normally will be very very deep and far below the area disturbed by the plough. They are likely to be there forever and never found. They will sleep in peace. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 29 May , 2009 Share Posted 29 May , 2009 John, You miss the whole point. Artefacts that are found near or below the surface have been discarded . If a Man,lies deeper,it may be that immediately below surface debris which is be sold as "Dug up" should be used as a tool to identify the Man,or at least his Nationality,Regiment,etc.,who lies deeper. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave.ib_walker@ntlworld.co Posted 29 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2009 Having kicked this off (mea culpa), perhaps I should (a.) apologise again for dragging up an oft visited and emotive subject and (b.) offer to draw it to a close. Valid points all round, and one or two cases of violently agreeing! Picking up surface finds is not theft, as they would be disposed of anyway, rightly or wrongly. Better to be picked up by someone with an interest. Similarly, we can get too pious about what is or is not "sacred" ground; I suspect that whilst many visitors may be interested in the site of the battle of Agincourt it holds little sentimental value - time and scale? My main issue with the items in question - and others of their sort - was the pure hypocrisy of suggesting that an item which had been carried off for profit should be treated with "the utmost respect" by the prospective buyer. This was not some poor farmer living hand-to-mouth, but a semi-professional retailer of finds. However, if there's a market there will always be a supplier. I just find the whole thing a tad sordid. I shall henceforth restrict myself to discussing obscure subjects relating to uniform and equipment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 29 May , 2009 Share Posted 29 May , 2009 Hi Mick, Re complete boot...I found one but no bones. Does happen!! However agree with the sentiment. Being smart sorry... Agree with thread that to dig and sell..... To pic k up from a field walk and keep and treasure...well... Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarsA Posted 29 May , 2009 Share Posted 29 May , 2009 Some years ago - I think 1998 - I was at Delville Wood on the Somme, when they still sold safe battle field souvenirs there. They did it with a grace and reverence very fitting to the task. I bought a british fuse cap, with the comments from the lady at the counter: "You really should be out finding your own, nothing beats that". I would agree, but time did not permit. As many things comes up with the plough in farm land, better that it comes to use for remembering than being thrown away as scrap. Going around with a detector for monetary gain would be quite another matter to my mind. /Lars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 29 May , 2009 Share Posted 29 May , 2009 Just for the sake of accuracy and to help Pals avoid getting into trouble: Picking up surface finds is not theft, as they would be disposed of anyway, rightly or wrongly. Going onto someone's land, picking things up and taking them away certainly is theft, in just about any country you can think of. Imagine if someone tried that in your garden. Imagine doing it yourself, going into a garden in Thiepval and having a good look in the owner's vegetable-patch in the hope of finding something. Why people suddenly think it becomes OK if the "vegetable patch" in question is a large field, I don't know. OK - so the farmer may not actually mind if you remove bits of scrap from the surface. But he might, especially if he has just planted his crop. The point is, it is up to him to decide if it's OK - not up to us. I just didn't want Pals to go "over there" thinking they have any kind of right to walk around fields and pick things up, and then getting into trouble when the owner sees them. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 29 May , 2009 Share Posted 29 May , 2009 I saw a boot with bones up to the thigh in this muddy field in Mametz. I tried to retrieve them and the farmer came and asked me what I was doing with his property. I told him " I'm only pulling your leg." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 30 May , 2009 Share Posted 30 May , 2009 Hello, Last months several farmers told me they had people 5belgian and Dutch) on their land using detectors (especially in distant locations where they cannot be seen - in Belgium You need now a permit to use detectors). Some farmers don't like it, others doesn't mind, and actually the farmers never know what is exactly relieved from the land. Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1690philip Posted 30 May , 2009 Share Posted 30 May , 2009 In March when I was visiting Suken Lane, I spotted a man digging up around Hawthorn Crater. He was using a metal detector and spade and was a local young French man. When I confronted him about why he was digging up a grave site he did not have an answer but kept on saying it was his hobby. When he was putting the equipment away in the boot I seen loads of items which he had dug up. To me this is disrespectful and immoral. The only digging up I would endorse would be done by archaeologists. Regards, Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 30 May , 2009 Share Posted 30 May , 2009 So once again we arrive at the same old decision. Some people dig things up for themselves, some to sell. Some people approve of this and others don't. Has anyone got anything new to add? Incidentally, I have held and rattled, bones in an ammunition boot. Bit battered but whole ( the boot). Perhaps this was the ur-boot from which all the others have descended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 30 May , 2009 Share Posted 30 May , 2009 John, You miss the whole point. Artefacts that are found near or below the surface have been discarded . If a Man,lies deeper,it may be that immediately below surface debris which is be sold as "Dug up" should be used as a tool to identify the Man,or at least his Nationality,Regiment,etc.,who lies deeper. George George The whole top metre of farmland has been gone over and over with the plough moving things back and forth for the last 40 years (the start of deep mechanised ploughing). If someone found a badge or button in a field and there were bones 5 feet below (say in a shell hole), there is almost zero likelihood they were connected. It is only when a field is properly excavated will remains and artefacts be reliably linked together because they will be together at the same depth. That is the point and that is a fact. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 30 May , 2009 Share Posted 30 May , 2009 I saw a boot with bones up to the thigh in this muddy field in Mametz. I tried to retrieve them and the farmer came and asked me what I was doing with his property. I told him " I'm only pulling your leg." I'm surprised he didn't offer you a hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillgorilla Posted 30 May , 2009 Share Posted 30 May , 2009 I remember about twenty years ago going into Trones Wood with my Dad, the further we got in, the more there were little holes - not made by war, not made by animal, but made apparently by man. There were quite a few, obviously there had been detecting going on - makes you wonder what actually goes on. Those who are prepared to rob the dead, you have to question their morals, but do they see what lies beneath or do they just see £££? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett361975 Posted 30 May , 2009 Share Posted 30 May , 2009 "The remains of the fallen still litter these fields so to dig something up is the same as digging up a graveyard in my opinion" A grave yard is littered with bodies, but we do not see them. Would anyone dream of digging up a graveyard? For a watch? A gold tooth? So what’s the difference? The fields are a mass grave for the fallen, the only difference being they have no headstone. TO DIG UP.....................is morally wrong unless it is done by professional archivists and for a specific purpose. To PICK UP something that has been turned by the plough is down to your own moral judgement. When future generations find these collections of bits of broken and rusty metal in granddads shed how many collections will end up being thrown away? Surely these things are best left to disappear with the sands of time. Many museums have plenty of artefacts for the public to view should they wish to. To DIG UP and sell for a profit, sorry but in my opinion you cant stoop much lower. Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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