Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Y Ravine Cemetery


Peter Woodger

Recommended Posts

Hi

Y Ravine is one of those cemeteries where the CWGC is vague in its description saying that there are more than 400 burials and more than one third are unknown.

Here are the precise details.

There are 428 burials including 53 who are known to be buried and 8 who are believed to be buried.

There are 151 Unknowns buried here of whom 41 are identified by Regiment and a further 6 by rank alone.

There are 126 double headstones and 1 triple

Of the 8 that are believed to be buried in the cemetery 7 are Newfoundlanders.

Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Peter,

I wonder if this may assist to explain?

It is from the War Diary of the 8th Royal Scots,Pioneer Battalion to the 51st(Highland)Division.

10/11 November 1916-Battalion employed clearing front line-Owing to weather,front line became quite impassable,being waist deep in liquid mud.All that was required was to clear line sufficiently to enable men to pass right along it and to stay in it for about 2 hours(Y/Z) night and then leave the trench over the parapet for the assault.

George

Link to comment
Share on other sites

George

It is always a difficult question as to how some men were known or believed to be buried in a cemetery.

Y Ravine 1 was started by 37th Div in November 1916 after they had relieved 63rd Div between the cemetery and the Ancre. The cemetery has the characteristics of their work. Every dated burial in Row A, with one exception, is from Nov 1916. Every dated burial from the first 50 burials in Row B, with one exception, is dated 1st July 1916. (I could exchange A33 for B37and make analysis easier). The rest of Row B and all of C & D was added by V Corps in the spring of 1917.

If we leave aside, for the moment, the 61 men who are commemorated then the ratio of Unknown to the total is 41% which is too high for this type of cemetery. If we now assume that the commemorated men are buried amongst the Unknowns but we do not know which is which then we have a ratio of Unknowns to the total of 23% and this is much more like the expected figure.

I would therefore suggest that due to battle damage, shelling or Firewood collectors a number of the original crosses were lost and the commemorated men are amongst the Unknowns. Quite why 7 Newfoundlanders and a South Wales Borderer are Believed rather than known to be buried here I have no idea.

Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi

As a further thought, for there to be only 41 identified by Regiment out of 151Unknowns is a low figure under the circumstances of the casualties. If we deduct our commemorated men from the figure of Unknowns then 41 out of 88 is more like the expected.

Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 10 years later...

As I understand it there were originally two cemeteries called Y Ravine. #1 and #2.

My uncle #1170 pte.Leo M. Burke is buried in Ancre cemetery but before that he was buried in Y Ravine Cemetery #2.

I am wondering just where was Y Ravine Cemetery #2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Leo:

 

As I see a topic on this cemetery was already started here I will gather the information you want an post it under this topic. I had not assembled these previously so I have to start at the beginning, but that won't take long. Once I have them, these file links will turn active (done!):

If anyone has found a COG-BR document for this cemetery, please let me know and I will gather the rest. The CWGC does say that No. 1 was based on battlefield clearances so they were exhumed from somewhere.

 

When I start this work on a cemetery, I like to find out where the concentrations came from originally. Sometimes they are mentioned in the CWGC information and other times they are just large groups in the COG-BR documents. In this case the CWGC does not mention any specific cemeteries that were concentrated to Y-Ravine. They do report that No. 2 went to Ancre B.C., which has already been done:

Here is what the CWGC has to say Y-Ravine: 

Quote

"Y" Ravine runs East and West about 800 metres South of the village, from "Station Road" to the front line of July 1916. It was a deep ravine with steep sides, lined with dug-outs, with extending two short arms at the West end. The village of Beaumont-Hamel was attacked and reached on 1 July, 1916, by units of the 29th Division (which included the Royal Newfoundland Regiment), but it could not be held. It was attacked again and captured, with the Ravine, by the 51st (Highland) Division on 13 November 1916.

 

The Newfoundland Memorial Park, and the 29th and 51st Divisional Memorials within it, commemorate these engagements, and "Y" Ravine Cemetery is within the Park. The village was later "adopted", with three others in the Somme, by the City of Winchester.

 

The cemetery was made by the V Corps in the spring of 1917, when these battlefields were cleared. It was called originally "Y" Ravine Cemetery No.1. No.2 cemetery was concentrated after the Armistice into Ancre British Cemetery, Beaumont-Hamel. There are now over 400, 1914-18 war casualties commemorated in this site. Of these, over a third are unidentified and special memorials are erected to 53 soldiers (or sailors or Marines) from the United Kingdom and eight from Newfoundland, known or believed to be buried among them. The cemetery covers an area of 1,166 square metres and is enclosed by a rubble wall.

 

That means the cemetery locations are:

  • Y Ravine Cemetery No. 1 - 57d.Q.11.c.2.2
  • Y Ravine Cemetery No. 2 - 57d.Q.17.a.4.0

The TMC for No. 2 comes from the COG-BR documents in the Ancre British Cemetery, as that is where they were concentrated. That theoretically means that the COG-BR documents that you want for Y Ravine Cemetery No. 2 are the ones that are in the Ancre British Cemetery. They start at COG-BR 1965612 and go to COG-BR 1965622. Some in the middle are marked "R.N.D. Cemetery "57d.Q.17.central" so that must have been almost in the same location as No. 2. They are clearly marked as men of the Royal Naval Division but there are some Royal Fusiliers intermixed.

The list I got from David Avery (DAL) does have the two cemeteries shown, along with a third one "German", which would require some further investigation as to where it ended up. Note that these differ from what I have shown above from the CWGC documents.

  • "Y" Ravine British Cemetery No. 1 (V Corps Cemetery No. 17), Beaumont Hamel 57d.Q.10.b.7.4
  • "Y" Ravine British Cemetery No. 2 (V Corps Cemetery No. 18), Beaumont Hamel 57d.Q.17.a.4.9
  • "Y" Ravine German Cemetery No. 2, Beaumont Hamel 57d.Q.11.a.8.5

Note that the CWGC refers to the 36 Canadians that are in this cemetery (CWGC Link). That is not correct and it is a problem for us on this side of the pond as it skews the records. There are no members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force in this cemetery, these 36 are all Newfoundlanders, which remained a British "colony" until 1949. They should be classed as British in the CWGC database or separated out as "Newfoundlanders", which would be the best solution.

 

The last GRFF document in the list is rather unique:

doc2063451.JPG

 

That is all for now,

 

Richard

 

Edited by laughton
added details from DAL - they differ?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

As far as im aware there are no Concentration reports for Y-Ravine No.1 as it was done with bodies that were found directly in or around that area.

 

With regards to R.N.D Cemetery being 17 Central this is on the British front line and is approximately 530 Yards from where Y-Ravine 2 is located. There is also, as im sure you are aware, another cemetery (Sherwood) which is in between the two. This also explains why Y-Ravine doesn't have concentration report as neither do any of these before being moved to Ancre.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...