Warlencourt Posted 28 May , 2009 Share Posted 28 May , 2009 Has the Forum come across this proposal before? http://www.nationalwarmemorial.co.uk what are members views on the proposal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 28 May , 2009 Share Posted 28 May , 2009 On the one hand I think there can never be enough War Memorials to honour The Fallen and whilst the location is most appropriate for WW1 and WW2 fatalities, perhaps any modern-created memorial should all commemorate those men and women lost in post-WW2 conflicts from 1946 up to today. On the other hand I cant help think that the cost for a new memorial at Dover would be better used in the Saving Folkestone Harbour Railway Station project a few miles down the road, through which many of the men of WW1 travelled on their way to, or returning from, France and Flanders. Regards, Jonathan S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlencourt Posted 28 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2009 I'm all for what the remembrance line guys are trying to do, http://www.theremembranceline.org.uk however the Dover proposals have a similar goal in so far as they are aiming to bring funds and attention to save the Western Heights fortificatons. See these guys, http://www.dover-western-heights.org/ who are incidently openning up the area for one weekend a year this weekend (30th/31st march 2009) The post 1946 casualties are taken care of by the new Armed Forces Memorial in Staffs, http://www.forcesmemorial.org.uk/index.asp I think they need to update their web site, there are some great photos on http://www.flickr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drummy Posted 28 May , 2009 Share Posted 28 May , 2009 In my view we already have the cenotaph at Whitehall as our national focal point of rememberance, then we have CWGC memorials to the missing, such as Thiepval and Menin Gate also act as memorials to British and those from the then Empire, Commonwealth who made the ultimate sacrifice. Those [british] killed since the end of the second world war up to the present date (and that list is sadly still being added to) are commemorated at the National Aboretum in Staffordshire (over 16,000 service personnel). Not sure about the need for another memorial, In general I think money could be better spent preserving the thousands that already exist [some in a very poor state] or supporting regimental/national museums and battlefield visitors centres that tell the story of what happened and adds the context to existing memorials / graves. The proposal is a worthy one but one I feel is already well covered by CWGC not only through its memorials, sites and individual graves but also its database. That said I am impressed with the aims of the Western Heights Preservation Society, perhaps a visitors centre that tells the story of the Victorian defences and also Dover / Folkestone and area during the two wars which adds to other Military History sites locally such as the tunnels story at Dover Castle and BoB Memorial site at Capel le Ferne. None the less Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinnethmont Posted 28 May , 2009 Share Posted 28 May , 2009 The Arboretum is the home of the Armed Forces Memorial which was opened in October 2007. It is a striking and emotive memorial and has quickly assumed national significance. It gives recognition and thanks for those who have died whilst on duty or as a result of terrorist action since the Second World War and acknowledges the enduring sacrifice of those who mourn their loss. I cannot see the need for it myself since there already is one for Post WW2 near Lichfield. National Memorial Arboretum I did hear mention of a new memorial at Dover involving the Dover Patrol. Maybe this includes that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 28 May , 2009 Share Posted 28 May , 2009 I did hear mention of a new memorial at Dover involving the Dover Patrol. The Dover Patrol memorial at Leathercote Point, overlooking St Margaret's Bay, was unveiled in 1921. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 28 May , 2009 Share Posted 28 May , 2009 I'm with Jonathan - save the existing sites in Folkestone (and the memorial way) rather than build another, new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Curragh Posted 28 May , 2009 Share Posted 28 May , 2009 I am sure it is well intentioned but I don't see the need for it. What wasn't clear from the website was who exactly was behind the proposal or supported it. The impression that I got was that the concept had come from an architectural design practice which consists of 2 lecturers from the University of East London - and was then supported by local councillors from the Dover area. Has there been any input or involvement from CWGC or any similar body? If there was any chance of central funds (doubtful I suspect) - I would much rather it go towards the upkeep of the existing war memorials around the country. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoker99 Posted 30 May , 2009 Share Posted 30 May , 2009 Having spent today at the Drop Redoubt on Dover’s Western Heights, I wanted to write to the forum in support of the proposed National War Memorial. The Drop Redoubt is an awesome place. The fortifications are built on an astonishing scale, a legacy of the days when military engineers thought big. However, the site needs our help. The Redoubt itself is owned by English Heritage, but the remainder of the site is controlled by Dover District Council. There’s a long history of official vandalism and desecration. A large part of the fortifications and barracks buildings were demolished as late as the 1960s, and the Council even planned to use the site as a landfill for domestic refuse. Although there’s a more enlightened policy these days, the neglect will take a long time to correct. The Western Heights Preservation Society is doing a fantastic job, but they could do so much more with the proper backing. The National War Memorial would give the site a focus and a purpose – it would bring in visitors and revenue, and allow the preservation work to continue. Yes, there are countless other memorials around the country, and yes, they are all deserving of support to preserve them for future generations. But surely that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do something dramatic for 4th August 2014. We managed to commemorate an arbitrary change of the calendar – can’t we do better than the Millennium Dome for an event as important as the centenary of the outbreak of the Great War? I’m just an interested member of the public, with no connection to either the Western Heights Preservation Society or the National War Memorial project, but it seems to me that this would be an inspiring gesture, on the same scale as the Drop Redoubt itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drummy Posted 31 May , 2009 Share Posted 31 May , 2009 All for Drop Redoubt, still not convinced re the need for another WW1 memorial but certainly support the aims of . If a call were made for national donations to do something tangible for the 100th anninversary some suggestions I would make 1) the creation of a National First World War Museum with collections merged from IWM, NAM, RAF & RN Museum's to bring together into one place some of the fantastic collections that exist across the country relating to the Great War, 2) a national project to index and copy all biographical articles that appeared in UK papers (14-21 period) relating to those who served in the Great War, what a resource that would be in terms of information and photos! Something along the lines of the Canadian Virtual War Memorial (I appreciate the sheer scale when looking at UK casualties) 3) donations to CWGC and current veterans charities that assist those in need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 31 May , 2009 Share Posted 31 May , 2009 Tony and I were also at Drop Redoubt yesterday and met the two people behind the project. We'd agree with everything RichardC says - Drop Redoubt is an extraordinary site and it would form a stunning background to the proposed War Memorial. It 's certainly a grandiose plan but we think it's one that deserves serious thought. There would be no such memorial anywhere else in the world. As to whether we need another one, while it's true that the Cenotaph commemorates all the Fallen, it doesn't commemorate them with names, which this would. Names bring out the enormity of it all in a way that nothing else does - just look at the way people stand and gaze at the names on the Menin Gate and Tyne Cot. I remember some years ago seeing the Mayor of Dresden standing, deep in thought, running his hands over the names of Saxons who fell in the First Battle of the Marne, just feeling the letters of all those names. What effect would seeing 1.7 million names have on a visitor? As for funding - in my experience there is always money available if a project is regarded as a good thing and I don't think that funding one project automatically deprives others of funds. It certainly ought to bring plenty of people into Dover - just look at the numbers at the Menin Gate every night. Can you imagine what the effect would be of a Bugler sounding the Last Post on the Heights overlooking the sea? Or a lone piper? What better way to remember those who served? I would be the first to support museums and archives but for pure visceral impact, a Memorial like this would win hands down. And it would be a focus for visits by lots of people who haven't the time or the inclination to use museums or archives. Sorry we didn't meet you, Richard, but if you're likely to be there again, we'll be at the Grand Shaft later today. The Western Heights Preservation Society are doing a wonderful job. Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoker99 Posted 31 May , 2009 Share Posted 31 May , 2009 Christina – sorry to have missed you at the Redoubt. I was travelling back to Bristol today, so I was unable to get to the second day of the Western Heights open weekend. In fact, one of the main reasons I was in Dover this weekend was so that I could visit the Drop Redoubt, and a fantastic day out it was. The Western Heights Preservation Society is indeed doing a wonderful job – I’d love to be able to help somehow, but it’s very difficult, living so far away. Drummy – far be it for me to contradict an ‘Old Sweat,’ but I think you’ve missed the point. I’ve also spent many, many hours researching the service of Great War soldiers, both family members and men from the local memorials, and I agree completely with you that we could be doing so much more to collect and provide access to the biographical data. The Canadian Virtual War Memorial is a fine example, and something along the same lines is overdue in the UK (although I’m a paying member of ancestry.co.uk, I still find it astonishing that I have to give money to a commercial company in order to gain access to part of our national heritage). But, for all that, I still think the National War Memorial idea is worthwhile. Despite all the arguments in its favour, a museum or archive would only be of immediate interest to a limited number of people, such as those who use this forum. But a National War Memorial would be a massive physical statement, visible to all. I can imagine what an inspirational sight it could be – thirteen immense white stone walls, situated above the White Cliffs of Dover, and inscribed with the names of the 1.7 million British men and women who died in the two World Wars. It would be an act of remembrance on a grand scale, and finding names on the walls would encourage many more people to research the war service of the members of their family. My son was with me at the Drop Redoubt on Saturday, and he’s taking one of the project information sheets into his school tomorrow. If the National War Memorial helps to inspire future generations, then surely it will go a long way towards making certain that “we will remember them.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drummy Posted 31 May , 2009 Share Posted 31 May , 2009 Richard, sorry if I have come across completely negative on the idea, the visual aspect of it would indeed be very impressive and thought provoking I just think that the cenotaph, CWGC memorials and sites, together with the tens of thousands of local town/village war memorials etc are already a visual message of rememberance. I cannot imagine the sheer scale of the proposed memorial to commemorate 1.7 million casualties from both wars commemorated by the CWGC ( a figure which includes not only British but also men and women from across the former empire / commonwealth) seeing the endless columns of names at Thiepval, which is huge and commemorates 72,000 men is staggering, the walls would be immense. Anything that does ensure remembrance and is a message of peace can only be a good thing and I wish the best of luck to those pursuing the project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Wayman Posted 31 May , 2009 Share Posted 31 May , 2009 First random thoughts: Why commemorate only the dead of the two world wars? Maybe begin with the Boer War - one of the first conflicts to be recognised by local memorials to the men who were killed. The inter-war years cannot be ignored either, can they? I accept that Alrewas National Memorial Arboretum commemorates post-1945. So why not expand that to accommodate those who preceded 1945? A more central location too (though I can see why Drop Redoubt is so attractive). Names could be recorded in the same manner as the post-1945 memorial. Just first ideas.... Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drummy Posted 31 May , 2009 Share Posted 31 May , 2009 Just adding to the post above I appreciate the thread relates to the 100th anniversary and a tangible memorial for that conflict but Ken does touch on a significant gap in how as a nation we remember the debt given by those who served outside of the world wars and prior to 1948. there truly is a gap in commemoration for the British men and women of the forces who died across the globe before & during the South African War 1899-1902 and whilst some existing graves are maintained for this war's dead by CWGC on an agency basis there is no (to my knowledge) central memorial recording the names of all those who died whether or not their graves are now known, or those who never had a known grave or lost/buried at sea etc.... Likewise the many service personnel who died on operations and garrison duties across the world between before 1900, and between 1900 to 1914 some of whom have known graves most have probably been long lost in hundreds long forgotten garrison and cantonment cemeteries. Then there is the period 1921 and 1939. Obviously there would be no way to search for and seek to maintain any existing graves round the world (quite a number are maintained by CWGC on an agency basis) but a database could be achieved. It is my understanding that death certificates exist for all service personnel who have died since the 1880's so the possibility of a central database for all British losses (not already covered by CWGC or National Armed Forces memorial [1948 to date]) who knows how many would have died during the period 1880's to 1914 and 1921 to 1939 but I fear it would be also in the tens of thousands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotchegg75 Posted 1 June , 2009 Share Posted 1 June , 2009 Thanks for the kind comments with regards the open weekend - as one of the organisers it is great to hear positive feedback and for you to come from afar and to go back and 'spread the word' in such places as this to raise our profile !! My personal opinion (and although not an official commitee line, I am sure other commitee will agree with me) is that the Memorial could be the key to providing the recognition and funding that the Western Heights deserves. No-one is going to give us the millions we need, and a work class hotel/conference centre alongside a National War Memorial and the opening of parts of the Heights as visitor centre/cafe/base all working together would be perfect for the site, and also a major boost to the town. At present it is a day-trip to the castle or bypass for the ferries, it needs to take all of the benefits of the 2000+ years of history that is has to take the town from major depression. Dover has had a military garrison of some sort for the best part of 1000 years, and now there is ONE in Dover Castle ! Nowhere in Dover is there really anywhere that commemorates the part that the town took in the two wars and the town would make an ideal base for it. I think people are totally behind the proposal and if it can happen it will be great ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest telemachus Posted 2 June , 2009 Share Posted 2 June , 2009 My personal opinion (and although not an official commitee line, I am sure other commitee will agree with me) is that the Memorial could be the key to providing the recognition and funding that the Western Heights deserves. No-one is going to give us the millions we need, and a work class hotel/conference centre alongside a National War Memorial and the opening of parts of the Heights as visitor centre/cafe/base all working together would be perfect for the site, and also a major boost to the town. At present it is a day-trip to the castle or bypass for the ferries, it needs to take all of the benefits of the 2000+ years of history that is has to take the town from major depression. I think thats the part that many other people have missed, having the memorial at Drop Redoubt will not only commemorate the fallen but also guarantee that part of Western Heights in perpetuity. The sheer scale of Western Heights is almost as impressive as the utter disdain with which it has been treated, the 'Immigrant Removal Centre' being the most visible sign of what it means to officaldom. As to the significance of its location, I don’t mean to be overly sentimental but the last view of their home that many of these men would have had would have been Dovers white cliffs, and to tie in a national memorial with the visual impact of 100 metre long white granite walls next to them is inspired, the view of it from ferries entering the port will be stunning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 2 June , 2009 Share Posted 2 June , 2009 I couldn't agree more with the significance of the location. My feeling as I stood on W. Heights and talked to the two people behind the project on Saturday was that, if such a War Memorial was to be built, there could be no better place for it. The cliffs must have been both the last view as the men left the UK and the first view as they returned. Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotchegg75 Posted 4 June , 2009 Share Posted 4 June , 2009 I couldn't agree more with the significance of the location. My feeling as I stood on W. Heights and talked to the two people behind the project on Saturday was that, if such a War Memorial was to be built, there could be no better place for it. The cliffs must have been both the last view as the men left the UK and the first view as they returned. Christina Not forgetting also that Dover was on the receiving end of the first bomb to land on this country... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 5 June , 2009 Share Posted 5 June , 2009 I didn't know that, Paul. Thank you. That makes it all the more special. Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlencourt Posted 5 November , 2011 Author Share Posted 5 November , 2011 It's worth looking at the updated website, particularly the "Documentary" at www.nationalwarmemorial.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlencourt Posted 3 September , 2013 Author Share Posted 3 September , 2013 The team behind this project has been asked to bring forward a planning application by the landowners and local authority, so it may yet happen in the centenary period 2014-2018 www.nationalwarmemorial.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charpoi Warrior Posted 4 September , 2013 Share Posted 4 September , 2013 I don't see any need for a national memorial, however worthy the proposals to preserve the area are. Besides which there are already three national memorials; in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Dublin. If there is to be a "national" memorial covering both wars and all Empire and Commonwealth casualties then why Dover? The claims made by (or possibly on behalf of) the National Arboretum of a central location are bad enough but Dover really is quite remote for much of the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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