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2nd Seaforth Highlanders kit


Andrew Upton
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Thanks for the links Andrew. I think your right, original is the way to go. On a somewhat related note, the putties in the first link look rather greenish to me. It might just be my computer color scale but the other two look decidedly khaki while the first one looks more green.

They really do, must be a Australian thing... the other two pairs are exact matches for the pair I've already got though, and they were just a few of the examples I found and quickly copied the links. I'm sure if you had a better look you could find some more, and probably a bit cheaper if you waited a little.

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I just thought of a something. I keep seeing the cloth Seaforth shoulder titles around. I know they were not an early war issue item, I was just curious if the Seaforths were indeed issued them later as the war progressed or if they were not issued at all.

I have seen the discussion on Cloth insignia but knowing how each regiment was different, I thought I would ask here to focus it down to my area of interest. Thanks.

Mike

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The cloth titles are the World War II standard after the army moved away from shiny gilding metal titles.

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Did you manage to snag a Seaforth kilt, Andrew?

Just catching up having got back from Detling and will sort out a reply to your PM later, but lets just say I was able to substantially advance my kit this weekend... ;)

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There would also be a silver safety pin 3 1/2" long fixed point down on the edge of the white stripe running perpendicularly near the edge of the apron and equidistant above and below the horizontal red stripe.

A few more questions:

http://www.scotweb.co.uk/browse/mens-wear/...ional-kilt-pins

I'm presuming the safety pin would be of the style shown in the link above above, sometimes referred to as a "nappy"pin?

Tam'O'Shanters - I'm probably going to get one off WPG, plus a kilt cover. An Osprey illustration shows it being worn with the badge backed with a square of McKenzie tartan. How big should this be, and should the crossed red and white stripes on it cross diagonally (ie corner to corner), or top to bottom and left to right (dividing it into quarters). Is there any specifics to placing a badge correctly on it? Period pictures seem to suggest it should be somewhere above and between the space over the left ear and left eye.

Not field kit so much as an additional bit of bling - the sporran - I've seen this one a few times whilst searching the web. Apart from the missing badge it looks to be in generally good shape, and not too highly priced. However, comparing it to some of the pictures on this thread, the three points of the leather part at the top seem to be more highly defined, and so would value any pointers as to what to look for in a period correct sporran:

http://www.skyehighlandoutfitters.com/Skye...ading_Post.html

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i279/sit...orthSporran.jpg

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Tam'O'Shanters - I'm probably going to get one off WPG, plus a kilt cover. An Osprey illustration shows it being worn with the badge backed with a square of McKenzie tartan. How big should this be, and should the crossed red and white stripes on it cross diagonally (ie corner to corner), or top to bottom and left to right (dividing it into quarters). Is there any specifics to placing a badge correctly on it? Period pictures seem to suggest it should be somewhere above and between the space over the left ear and left eye.

I got my Tam'O'Shanter from WPG this morning, and very nice it is too. I still need to know about the badge backing and placement, so if you do know please chip in. At the moment, I'm going from an illustration of a 1918 2nd Bn Seaforth Highlander in Peglers "British Tommy", which would suggest the Mackenzie tartan badge backing should be about 2.5 inches square, the red stripe dividing it horizontally and the white vertically, but I do know these details aren't always correct, so would appreciate any confirmation before I go any further.

28545902.th.jpg

94201369.th.jpg

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Hi Andrew,

Just a quick point, that not all Seaforths would have worn a tartan patch behind the badge. There is plenty photographic evidence of this. My own Seaforth TOS does not have one, neither does my Gordon Highlanders example.

Cheers

Owain.

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Just a quick point, that not all Seaforths would have worn a tartan patch behind the badge. There is plenty photographic evidence of this. My own Seaforth TOS does not have one, neither does my Gordon Highlanders example.

Thanks for that - are the two Tams you have originals? If they are, I would be interested to see a few pictures, especially as regards where the badges were placed (I want to get it right first time, not have to make any more holes in it than necessary!). I'm still keen to do the backing though, as it does look quite nice from the illustration.

On another note, the Osprey illustration is captained as being "of the 2nd Battalion, Seaforth Highlanders (Ross-shire Buffs, the Duke of Albany's ), 10th Infantry Brigade, 4th Division, BEF, France, 1918. He wears... Mackenzie tartan... shoulder patches,... (and) the green patch of the 10th. He sports... the green bar of his battalion painted on his helmet".

Where all members serving in the 2nd Seaforths in 1918 part of the 10th Inf. Brigade, and so would have worn the green "ramshead" patch of the same? If so, just the one arm, or both? What size would they have been? The same with the triangular Mackenzie patch shown being worn below - one arm, two? Size?

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Hi Andrew,

Apologies for not adding a reply. I have never put images online, but I should be able to get a bit of assistance once I have taken digital photos. My two TOS's are indeed original.

All the best

Owain.

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Apologies for not adding a reply. I have never put images online, but I should be able to get a bit of assistance once I have taken digital photos. My two TOS's are indeed original.

If you have any problems getting the pictures onto the web Owain, let me know and I'll sort it out so they can appear in the thread.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Remembering today the death of 681 Pte Isaac Shortman 2nd Bn Seaforth Highlanders. A pre-war Regular who came from Bath originally, he went overseas with the Seaforths on the 23rd of August 1914. His war was to last less than two months, being killed in action on the 13th October 1914 during the successful attack by the 10th Infantry Brigade, 4th Division, to recapture the village of Meteren from its German occupiers. He was only 24, the same age I am now. Not forgotten 95 years on.

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  • 1 month later...
Did you manage to snag a Seaforth kilt, Andrew?

I thought I'd add a few more bits to this thread.

This was the Seaforth kilt I picked up at Detling - my size, £85 (haggled down from £100). It's an original military issue example, post 1957 given the information on the label, formerly the property of one CSM M. McDonald according to the information written inside:

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVBQwXJ&code=2

BQwXJ.jpg

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gx1axCEA&code=2

1axCEA.jpg

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gx1axU6A&code=2

1axU6A.jpg

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Whilst I've mostly been concentrating on OR's kit, I have also had an eye on the appropriate Officer kit at the same time. I saw the following on Ebay:

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Ts2odYZS

2odYZS.jpg

Despite a poor auction description and terrible photo, a request for more photos showed it to be in good shape and so I made a lowish bid expecting to be outbid. To my suprise there were no other bidders, and it was mine for £19.99 (including UK p+p!).

It's an original late 30's/early WW2 vintage jacket, originally for shoulder rank, made by William Anderson and Sons of Edinburgh, with most of it's original complement of Seaforth buttons by the same. I sent it off for conversion to cuff rank just over a week ago, and got it back in the post this morning, very pleased with the results:

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVBQ0wS&code=2

BQ0wS.jpg

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Ts1t476A&code=2

1t476A.jpg

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http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=PqToF99&code=2

ToF99.jpg

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVBQrYr&code=2

BQrYr.jpg

Now, having got the tunic, I'm curious as to how far other items of Officers kit differered from OR's kit. From what I can gather it's largely the same, simply better quality/private purchase, in which case I can simply use the same items from my OR's kit, such as the kilt, spats, short puttees, kilt pin with my normal Officer kit shirt, tie and collar pin. However, other items like the sporran are noticable different. Period pictures show Officers wearing what appears to be the standard brown toecapped boots when worn with khaki hose and short puttees, but would they have worn brown shoes/brogues when in coloured hose and spats, or black ones? If it's black then the pair of modern black Oxfords I've got will double for both, but I presume it's brown in which case I'll need another pair in brown!

Did Officers ever wear the Tam O'shanter, or did they stick with the glengarry? If they did wear the TOS, did they use the same badge on both?

I would also appreciate anyone who could confirm that the type of cap badge shown in the Ebay listing below (three part 3-D construction, with scroll, stags head, coronet style crown over styalized L) is the correct style for Officers of the period, and if anyone knows of a source for such which doesn't cost over £100! Still looking for a pair of ordinary brass SEAFORTH titles as well for my OR's kit.

http://cgi.ebay.com/SCARCE-SEAFORTH-HLDRS-...=item588423479c

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Did Officers ever wear the Tam O'shanter, or did they stick with the glengarry? If they did wear the TOS, did they use the same badge on both?

I would also appreciate anyone who could confirm that the type of cap badge shown in the Ebay listing below (three part 3-D construction, with scroll, stags head, coronet style crown over styalized L) is the correct style for Officers of the period, and if anyone knows of a source for such which doesn't cost over £100! Still looking for a pair of ordinary brass SEAFORTH titles as well for my OR's kit.

I seem to be answering my own questions at the moment - althought its c.WW2, it's an A&SH Tam O'shanter listed on Ebay, Officer quality material, and with the standard Officer quality cap badge as well:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Argyll-Sutherland-High...n%3D5%26ps%3D63

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The kilt and tunic were great deals! The rank insignia and piping looks excellent.

My newlywed days are pushing my collecting/acquiring to the extreme rear. I'm trying to convince the new wife that I need a mannequin torso to display my kit, but she's afraid of them :unsure:

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The kilt and tunic were great deals! The rank insignia and piping looks excellent.

My newlywed days are pushing my collecting/acquiring to the extreme rear. I'm trying to convince the new wife that I need a mannequin torso to display my kit, but she's afraid of them :unsure:

Thanks - the braid is from Schipperfabrik, the pips are vintage originals that came off my other standard type cuff rank tunic (badged to full Lieutenant when I got it) which I put back down to 2nd Lieutenant. For reference purposes, anyone else doing a similar conversion would need 6 feet of the braid - I ordered 5 feet, luckily received 6 1/2 feet, and got about 12 inches back spare at the end. Each "extra" row of braid (for Captain and upwards, to cover both cuffs) would need around another 2 1/2 feet (3 feet would be good, to allow for the end to be neatly finished and give some spare material).

The conversion work was done by John Wanmer of the East Essex Tailoring Company - I was recommended him by a Napoleonic reenactor, and would heartily recommend him to anyone else.

The tunic isn't so much of a bargain now - nearly £80 including the price I bought if for, postage to be converted there and back, braid, and some new buttons. I had to replace the original plain fourth button with a Seaforths one, as I could only find period photos of this style - the plain button seems to be a just post war feature (as one dealer has three originals cuff rank tunics from the same source and two have the plain button).

With the kilt, it certainly helped that one of the people helping out the dealer was in the same reenactment group as myself :lol: He vouched for my bona fides, so I was able to take the kilt away with me to see if it fitted properly, let a resident Scottish reenactor cast his eye over it who pronounced it good, and went back to haggle ;)

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Hi Andrew,

Here's a picture of Chum Jack Johnson representing the A&SH at Plugstreet a few years ago.

Some of the Chums have khaki spats but they are very hard to find in wearable sizes.

In 2001 there was a Chums kilted Somme tour (second picture at the 51st Highland Division Memorial, Beaumont Hamel). The deal was that everyone had to represent a kilted Highland Battalion that fought on the Somme - and no two men could represent the same unit. Of the 36 kilted battalions we managed 24 including many of the hard to find kilts such as Liverpool Scottish and South African Scottish (kilt loaned by the Duke of Atholl whose private army still wear them). We struggled with a Camerons kilt and were eventually rescued by Canadian Chum WO2 Ed Storey who arranged for a kilt to be sent by the Quartermaster of the QO Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa. We were struggling for Seaforths kilts but I decided to call their Regimental Secretary. I told him what we wanted and he said, "no problem" we have some old ones spare. We bought four or five of them for £40 each - all brand new and with the pleats still sewn in. Two of them were WW2 dated so not as heavy as the Great War ones but the closest we were likely to get. Give them a call. You never know - they may still have some!

Good luck.

Cheers,

Taff

.

post-1565-1258672157.jpg

post-1565-1258672212.gif

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In 2001 there was a Chums kilted Somme tour (second picture at the 51st Highland Division Memorial, Beaumont Hamel). The deal was that everyone had to represent a kilted Highland Battalion that fought on the Somme - and no two men could represent the same unit. Of the 36 kilted battalions we managed 24 including many of the hard to find kilts such as Liverpool Scottish and South African Scottish (kilt loaned by the Duke of Atholl whose private army still wear them). We struggled with a Camerons kilt and were eventually rescued by Canadian Chum WO2 Ed Storey who arranged for a kilt to be sent by the Quartermaster of the QO Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa. We were struggling for Seaforths kilts but I decided to call their Regimental Secretary. I told him what we wanted and he said, "no problem" we have some old ones spare. We bought four or five of them for £40 each - all brand new and with the pleats still sewn in. Two of them were WW2 dated so not as heavy as the Great War ones but the closest we were likely to get. Give them a call. You never know - they may still have some!

Thanks Taff, but I'm already sorted for a kilt now, and I've got a pair of white spats which I dyed brown (they've come out a bit odd, but will suffice for field use until something better comes along) - apparently, Baz Cox is looking into getting the correct khaki type reproduced, so they might be more easily available in the future.

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Man, I'd love an original army-issue Seaforths kilt ... unfortunately I doubt they have one in size 44 :blush:

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Of the 36 kilted battalions we managed 24

It's a great photo, another time travel classic. I especially like the fact that, correctly, the jackets are a mix of cutaway and unmodified. I can only see 23 people here though! Edit following 25W light bulb in brain - was one of them taking the picture?

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