RGT Posted 18 May , 2009 Share Posted 18 May , 2009 I am related to 2nd Lt. H. F. Parsons VC, 14th Gloucesters, who was killed in the early hours of 21st August 1917, singlehandedly defending a position in or near Epehy referred to in the War Diary simply as "The Knoll." This had been captured by 105th Brigade two days before and may have been part of ground lost again a few days later. I will be driving to France next month to visit the grave and, I hope, the place where he fell. The grave's no problem but so far I haven't been able to find out just where The Knoll is. I've got the local IGN 1:25,000 map but it doesn't help much - there are a number of hillocks around, any one of which might be the one, but nothing definitive. So, could anyone point me in the right direction, please? Book, website, personal knowledge, anything that might help. Thanks very much. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Banning Posted 18 May , 2009 Share Posted 18 May , 2009 Congratulations on having such a distinguished WW1 relative. You must get KW Mitchinson’s 'Epehy - Hindenburg Line' from the Battleground Europe series. I bought mine a couple of months ago second hand and I find it a very good read. It was most useful when I was in Epehy earlier this month. Chapter 6 covers Gillemont Farm and the Knoll. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Epehy-Hindenburg-L...3346&sr=8-2 I am sure someone will post a map overlay using Linesman for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
certacito79 Posted 18 May , 2009 Share Posted 18 May , 2009 Hi I havnt got linesman, just the old fashioned way of overlaying various maps, hope they help. All the information I have relates to the 3rd Cavalry Bde and Gillemont Farm really but if you need anything else just shout. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
certacito79 Posted 18 May , 2009 Share Posted 18 May , 2009 And the second showing the French IGN overlaid showing you the footpath to the trig point on top of the knoll. The trench map I have used is from Dec 1917 so take that into account, Hope this has helped John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdajd Posted 18 May , 2009 Share Posted 18 May , 2009 If you have an opportunity when you're in the area try to visit the American Somme Cemetary. Most of the men buried there died in the attack on the San Quentin Canal part of the Hindenburg Line on Sept. 29 1918. Part of the their field of attack was in the Macquincourt Valley between the Knoll and Guillemont Farm (Which is still there). If you do not have time to visit, use the cemetary as a starting point there is a road that leads up past it on the right towards Guillemont Farm at the farm the road branches left follow that and it starts to loop around towards the area where the Knoll was. I have some pictures of the area as it looks now if you are interested. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantamforgot Posted 18 May , 2009 Share Posted 18 May , 2009 Hello Richard, You wouldn't be from NZ would you, or is he a relative of yours, we communicated sometime ago about Lt. Parsons.? Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGT Posted 18 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2009 Jeremy, John, Jon and Colin, Thankyou all very much for your very prompt responses. Jeremy, thanks for your congrats, but it had absolutely nothing to do with me. I just count myself very fortunate to have had a relative with a known grave, and who I know died honourably. There must have been so many more who were just as deserving of an award, maybe more so, who are now forgotten and lying in an unknown grave. I will certainly get a copy of the Mitchinson book. I had heard of it, but didn't want to splash out until I knew it would be useful. John, many thanks for the maps. I now know exactly where to go. And Jon, yes, I will certainly visit the American Cemetary when I'm there. Thanks for the offer of the photos. I would certainly be interested. Is there a private message facility here to enable us to exchange email addresses? As you see, I'm new here and still trying to find my way around. Colin, no I wouldn't be from NZ. And we haven't communicated before. But if you've been in touch with another relative, I'd be most interested. My mother's maiden name was Parsons and she was his 2nd cousin. Regards to all, Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantamforgot Posted 18 May , 2009 Share Posted 18 May , 2009 Sorry Richard, However if I can locate the gent in NZ I communicated with some years ago I will let you know, there was a "Falconer" in the name, that I remember. Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdajd Posted 18 May , 2009 Share Posted 18 May , 2009 I tried to private messenger you , but you are still too new. You may have to do a couple of more posts until you are allowed to private message someone. The superintendent of the American cemetary's name is Craig Rahanian (?) who was extremely nice and very knowledgable. Have a great time the visits are priceless. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGT Posted 18 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2009 Sorry Richard, However if I can locate the gent in NZ I communicated with some years ago I will let you know, there was a "Falconer" in the name, that I remember. Colin. That's OK, Colin, no need to apologise. If there was a Falconer in the name, we wouldn't be related. Both the Hardy and the Falconer in his name came from either his mother or grandmother. His Parsons grandfather's brother was my great grandfather. But if you do find him, I'd still be interested. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGT Posted 18 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 May , 2009 I tried to private messenger you , but you are still too new. You may have to do a couple of more posts until you are allowed to private message someone. The superintendent of the American cemetary's name is Craig Rahanian (?) who was extremely nice and very knowledgable. Have a great time the vivits are priceless. Jon Thanks Jon. I've now done a couple more posts, so it may just work now. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveC1903 Posted 19 May , 2009 Share Posted 19 May , 2009 Richard, I'm attaching a couple of maps one of the other pals provided me when I enquired about The Knoll. My great uncle was killed at The Knoll by shell fire on August 19. Mitchinson's book is excellent and has a suggested walking tour of Gillemont Farm and The Knoll. Hope you have a wonderful trip and that you can share with us any pictures you might take. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantamforgot Posted 19 May , 2009 Share Posted 19 May , 2009 Hello Richard, Finally located the information I was trying to remember, it was Falconer & a relative of his (18 HLI) was kia on the same day , same action at the Knoll. Have you seen the details of the action in the "History of the 35th. Division" ? Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmaasz Posted 19 May , 2009 Share Posted 19 May , 2009 jdajd To help others searching please can we have GILLEMONT FARM spelled correctly? Guillemont is not this place. PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdajd Posted 19 May , 2009 Share Posted 19 May , 2009 I don't know about that. According to everything that I have it is spelled both ways Guillemont Farm and Gillemont Farm (along with the map on this page which has Gill. spelling). Sorry if it causes any confusion, but I made a change to my marking of the map Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGT Posted 19 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 19 May , 2009 Thanks, Dave. That's a very clear map. Do you, or anyone else know where I can get a copy of that or another WW1 map of the area, please? I'm afraid the wonderful response I've had to my plea has only made me greedy for more, so you've only got yourselves to blame! Was your great uncle killed in the original action to capture the Knoll? Colin, no, I haven't seen the details of the action. Is this the book by H M Davson? I've just ordered the Mitchinson book, so may be starting a little library. And are you saying that a relative of Parsons was killed at the same time and place? Do you know his name or any other details? Once again, my warmest thanks to you all for your help. The maps you have provided have really brought the area to life. One question, quite possibly a silly one. Some of the trenches are blue and some red. Why? Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantamforgot Posted 19 May , 2009 Share Posted 19 May , 2009 Hi Richard, Not a relative of yours, it was just that the name Falconer rang a bell, however he was kia on the same date as your relative. The book I mentioned was by Davson, "History of the 35th. Division". Cheers. Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveC1903 Posted 20 May , 2009 Share Posted 20 May , 2009 Richard, Not sure where that map came from but here is a link to the McMaster University Library WW1 Online Maps: http://library.mcmaster.ca/maps/ww1/home.htm Red trenches are the German ones, Blue are the British. I would definitely recommend buying Davson's History of the 35th Division. Chapter 9 is devoted to the August action at The Knoll and Gillemont Farm, and Lieutenant Parsons gallant act is detailed here. It also contains an extract from a letter from the King fron October 1917. Lieutenant Parsons is featured in Mitchinson's book, which also contains a picture of him. Here's an aerial map of the area which is more detailed than Google Maps. http://www.geoportail.fr/RechercheGC.do?vi...cp=&adresse= Click the link and select the Lempire in Aisne. Scroll to the right to see Gillemont Farm and The Knoll on the other side of the motorway. Using the trench maps above, and trench sketches in Davson's book, you can identify the faint outlines of old roads and tracks under the fields. This should help you locate The Knoll and old trenches as they are now. I wish I was clever enough to overlay the trench maps with the aerial photograph! My great uncle's battalion provided scouting patrols and support during the original attack. His company was apparently caught by shellfire as they moved up to the front line carrying ammunition. Hope the above is useful. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmaasz Posted 20 May , 2009 Share Posted 20 May , 2009 jdajd: Many books refer to it incorrectly as Guillemont Farm, but both WW1 and modern maps confirm it is Gillemont, said with a French soft 'G' almost like ginger, and not a hard 'G' as in glass. The French G does not come easy to English speakers, hence the easier common practice, even amongst my colleagues, of saying it like Guillemont, which it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantamforgot Posted 20 May , 2009 Share Posted 20 May , 2009 Richard, Just to give you some idea of the 35th.s History I attach a page re. your relative. hope it is readable, be better when you can receive e mails etc. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantamforgot Posted 20 May , 2009 Share Posted 20 May , 2009 Richard ,just a sketch map of the "knoll" . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdajd Posted 20 May , 2009 Share Posted 20 May , 2009 Also would recommend the Battleground Europe book on Epehy. As to spelling its not just books that spell it that way (although in one of the official records of the US 27th Div. its spelled both ways within the same paragraph). The American Monument at Bony has a map of the area where its spelled Guillemont Farm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59165 Posted 20 May , 2009 Share Posted 20 May , 2009 If it is def the Somme.it is def Guillemont 80360 Picardie France . Thats how its spelt.def means,well ,you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
certacito79 Posted 20 May , 2009 Share Posted 20 May , 2009 They are two very different places, it took someone to point the difference out to me at first as I started to research the second down below. Not surprised that people come across different spellings in diairies etc, I have some absolutely peaches from when the 16th Lrs where in Belgium.....bit of head scratching involved. But these are the correct spellings...... Gillemont Farm East of Lempire Guillemont - Just east of Trone Wood, south east of Longueval John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdajd Posted 20 May , 2009 Share Posted 20 May , 2009 They are definitely very different places although technically both are on the Somme. I dn not want to get into anything with anyone as its obvious that the place near the Knoll is Gillemont as spelled on the maps I'm just pointing out that there were different spellings even on official documents. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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