They died for our Freedom

[dycer]

John/Tom,

You are fair debaters,whom I respect,know and value, for your contrary views.

Surely that is the point, WW1 and WW2 were fought to allow us free expression and to value different views and opinions, but to respect our colleagues.

George

p.s. As an Institution,I prefer a Monarchy.

[dycer]

I have no great interest in the human interest side of the war

For my sins,or otherwise,one of my Uncles,inadvertently,stretched on wakening,in the front line and was sniped.

A very inglorious death many on the Forum,will suggest.

He did not die, attacking enemy position,or in some other glorious deed.

But why should they all be heroes?

George

[CT-Guards]

For me I remember them as a mark of respect.

George, surely any victim/casualty who gave their life during the Great War (or any other war) was a hero - were they not defending our nation? Is that not a great deed in it's self.

We do not have to reply or read the 'Rembering Today' threads, each to their own.

Regards

[1690philip]

I think Scottie reply to the remembrance says it all.

" Thank you for the Freedom that I enjoy today".

Does it really matter how a soldier of the Great War was Killed by either a sniper or on an attack. They gave their all for the freedom we enjoy today and in my option they are Hero`s each and every last one of them. Just like every service person that gives their life For Queen and Country. How many people today would be prepared to lay down their lives for others???

When you go home tell them of us and say

for your tomorrow we gave our today.

John Maxwell Edmonds.

Phil

[John_Hartley]

were they not defending our nation?

At the risk of us drifting off-topic, they were not, IMO. I take the view that, unlike WW2, our nation was not being attacked.

So, my father fought to defend our nation (he was actually very safe in the Pay Corps in India), whilst his uncle died fighting an imperialist war to defend the priveledges of the priveledged.

[Steven Broomfield]

Surely the men/women, having read so many accounts/service records/war diaries etc is what counts! It was 'their war, their time in life',

Alie.

I think it depends on your interest. For myself, when I researched the names on my local memorial (and when I lay a wreath there each Armistice-tide) I can't 'remember' them, because I never knew them.

I can think about them; consider what they went through, but for me to claim I remembered them would, I feel, be presumptious.

Additionally, as Tom says, these men - brave or cowards, weaklings or heroes - are a piece of history every bit as much as Wellington's armies or Caesar's Legions. The differences, I suspect are, firstly, that they left so much more documentation to make them 'real' to us, and, secondly, that we do often know their children and some first-hand knowledge.

For me, that still doesn't make me feel I can 'remember' them: I can study them, and I can find out all I can (or at least all I can wish to) find out.

But then, Alie, my attitude is different to yours. My outlook is different. My interest is different. I, like Tom, am probably more interested in the military/political aspect of the war than in the little people (and that is not meant perjoratively).

That doesn't make me better or worse than you. Just different.

I feel there are aspects of the war we forget: as I have said, I think the Indian contribution is hideously undervalued, but as I have never lived in the Punjab or the marched on the frontier, I again feel I can't get over-involved with the men, though that didn't stop me having a lump in my throat when visiting their burial places on the Western Front.

[herbie4798]

Phil and Scottie i couldnt agree more. What a stupid amount of comments George. What is wrong with you? Your comments have struck some serious Chords with me. My Great Grandad and every other soldier who died and survived the great war are a hero. I dont care what anyone says. Yes I reply to rememberance posts and i pay my respects to each and everyone one of them. I also post Rememberance threads and will continue to until I cant physically type.

James

[dycer]

George, surely any victim/casualty who gave their life during the Great War (or any other war) was a hero - were they not defending our nation? Is that not a great deed in it's self.

CT,

Consider, for a few moments, the abuses that seem to be going on,in our name,in Parliament.

Also consider,the Leaders,who lost their lives,in WW1,but had, they survived,may have counselled a different approach to Germany in the 1930's which may have prevented WW2,but had our Country still gone to War,would have ensured they did everything,in their power,to ensure that evil was eliminated.

It is often said,that this Country,skipped a generation of Leaders,as a result of WW1,and clearly the excesses of the present Parliament would not have been allowed to happen,by the WW1 fighting Leaders,or their descendants,had they not shown extreme bravery in defence of their Country in WW1.

George

[Desmond7]

I would say, very honestly, that WW1 is one era where I find myself verging on the emotionally unstable.

Sometimes you just feel the need to ackowledge what 'the boys' from 'the town' or 'the village' did. I love my history and I love factual history. But scrape a wee bit at the surface and the humanity is still there.

Like so many of the bones under the fields where they fought?

I think that's what keeps me enmeshed in this whole shebang.

I don't now whether to be proud, sorry or puzzled.

[IanA]

I do not feel strongly enough about this to begin a thread but, as one is up and running, I will add my tuppence worth.

Mawk a l'outrance appears to be the order of the day. Great public weepings and gnashing of teeth, the placing of wreaths at a site of someone's death by people who never knew the victim, the desire to be seen emoting with abandon. It reminds me of the lady who emerges from the cinema praising the wonderful film because 'she cried all the way through it'.

I object to people 'remembering' men they never knew. I object to the phrase 'he gave his life'. I rather think it was taken without his consent. I object to the phrase 'they were all heroes' (with or without a misplaced apostrophe) - they weren't.

I would agree with Tom's sentiments even though I am more interested in the personal accounts. I view the victims of all wars with respect and reverence but I think we ought not to parade our emotions for public approval.

[dycer]

Des,

Never feel sorry.

As was said in Kohima "For your tomorrows,we gave our todays."

George

[CT-Guards]

To those who don't agree with the 'Remembering Today' thread and who quote "we ought not to parade our emotions for public approval"

So who and what exactly are you all doing on Remembrance Sunday! I for one am confused by certain comments throughout this thread. Those who do not like the 'Remembering Threads' don't read em'.

Kindest regards

[eviltaxman]

I've never posted a reply to a "remembered today" thread, solely for the reason I'd feel like a hypocrite as not having known the chap but I leave it those that have researched them as that's the next best thing. Personally the one person outside of my family I "remember" died in 1946 - 22 years before I was born. He was Lt Col Dan Burges VC (see my sig). After all the research I've done on him over the last 5 years and having met many branches of his family, I feel I know him. Even though he earned his VC in WW1, I don't remember him here - I go to the cemetery each year as my mark of respect.

[John_Hartley]

So who and what exactly are you all doing on Remembrance Sunday!

Dunno yet what I'll be doing. It's months off - but I imagine I'll spend it like I do most Sundays. Big breakfast, read of the Observer, spot of gardening, snooze in the afternoon, cook and eat dinner with Mrs H, some time on the computer.

If any of my earlier comments have confused you, please ask away and I'll try to explain further.

John

[CT-Guards]

Let's just say that if individual's like myself who post 'Remembering Today' post's, it's your right to either reply or not. However I feel out of repect, it is not your place to to debate wether or not this is right or wrong.

I'm up for a good debate but let's find a more suitable topic and allow those who wish to openly display their acknowledgement's do so!

Gentlemen, goodnight.

Best regards

[Steven Broomfield]

To those who don't agree with the 'Remembering Today' thread and who quote "we ought not to parade our emotions for public approval"

So who and what exactly are you all doing on Remembrance Sunday! I for one am confused by certain comments throughout this thread. Those who do not like the 'Remembering Threads' don't read em'.

Kindest regards

I didn't say I didn't agree, so I assume this isn't directed this way. It's just not my thing, that's all.

As for Remembrance Sunday, I'll do what I always do; I'll lay a wreath, either as represnetative of the Parish Council or the RBL. I'll then go home and carry on counting my Poppy Tins, giving my bit to helping those poor ******* who've suffered in current conflicts and longer-distant ones.

The fact I don't 'remember' people I never knew doesn't mean I'm without human kindness.

[Paul Reed]

Over the years I have read the diaries, letters and jottings of many young men who went to war during ‘14-18. Believing firmly that the written word is a way into the soul, I would vainly like to think something of these men rubbed off on me. Some of them were truly quite remarkable people, and said extraordinary things about the situation they found themselves in; others dismissed it with a laugh or a joke, which still resonates down the years. Whenever I see their graves, or their names on a memorial, or read them in print or on the net, I must confess it makes me smile – a smile of recognition, of remembrance perhaps. As a cold hearted historian I shouldn’t do it, but I do - unashamedly. For many of them, I know, have no living relatives. If their names don’t raise a smile in me, then who will they? Many of us subscribe to the view that this generation should not be forgotten; it’s why we come here, surely? I’m paraphrasing Arthur Currie on this occasion, but he said something along the lines of “if these are the things we choose to forget, what should we remember?”

At times I must confess I do stagger to understand this forum, but in many ways I only peer in these days. Personally I shall continue to smile – continue to remember people I never met, but whose lives and deaths deserve some meaning, and some appreciation. If some people here find that odd, or disapprove, I’m sure I can live with it…

[Desmond7]

The sweeping use of the word heroes is logically not fit for purpose.

Should modern society feel enabled to 'juke' the pledge 'Their Name Liveth Forever More' ... depends on where your life is at I suppose.

I think I 'remember', and by that I mean respect, the fallen of WW1 because - for the most part - it was the first war of the 'citizen' Britain fought.

Whether their lives were sacrificed or taken is immaterial to me ... I (perhaps wrongly) hold to theold fashioned belief that they went and gone and done it .. and thank Gawd I didn't have to.

If I missed the Memorial Park on a wet Sunday it would not drive me to depair, but I do feel right in being there. Do I think one in 100 thinks like me? No chance. And that is no reflection on them or their ideals.

We are .. the way we are.

[peterhogg]

I have always viewed the Remembering Today threads as one of the fine traditions of this forum. It is a ritual of remembrance that forms an integral part (not the only part, not an exclusive part, part certainly a part) of the fundamental nature of the forum's existence. The continuing respect for that tradition constitutes one of the reasons I followed the forum for years and finally joined it proper. This place is a like a nice quiet refuge.

If you don't subscribe to this tradition of remembrance, if the fact Private Joe Bloggs died this day 90 plus years ago in some nasty way in some equally nasty funk-hole in Flanders is of no concern to you, then so be it--no one is foisting anything on you. You don't have to read it or even turn your mind to it and it's not a prerequisite to membership or posting. So where is the harm?

There's many a post I may prefer not to read, so I don't.

Others in posts above have given eloquent expression to the importance of remembrance to themselves. I adopt those expressions as I could not express the notion in a way equal to such eloquence. And the golden thread running through those posts is that the way in which each choses to remember has both a personal and non-intrusive quality.

I like it. Please keep it. From my point of view, posters who object to the remembering today thread should be able to freely express that view. But the remedy should not be to eliminate the thread--though to be fair, I am not sure if anyone is actually advocating that remedy, yet.

For those who don't like it, don't read it. Avert your eyes. No one is forcing you to do otherwise. The fact it's there ain't gonna kill ya. The thread makes some people happy and its existence in no way interferes with your own corresponding right to think or feel otherwise.

Now about that sniper thread.... joke.

cheers,

peter

[west coast]

in all of the opposition and also the pro`s on remembering soldiers that one never knew or was related to, where doe`s that leave the " unknown soldier" who has no known name nor can anyone claim kinship to. but surley this is one of, if not the icon of remembering the fallen. has anyone got any views in the same vein that were expressed in previous posts one way or the other. this is not meant to be a disruptive post ,just a question related to the topic.

cheers, mike.

[CT-Guards]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

This one lies open to views and opinions from us all and I accept that. My view is, is that we should be free to post in any way shape or form our acknowledgement to those who fought and died, not to be critised by other members.

To clarify if I don't like or agree with certain posts then for me, I just don't reply or make comments. We have come this far debating on the fallen - let us all show some respect in whichever way we choose. Many 'Remembering Today' post's that I post are just merely names etched on a wall with no known grave for me to kneel at. Remembering those on an anniversary one at a time on here seem's to be the right thing to do.

Best regards

[John_Hartley]

has anyone got any views in the same vein that were expressed in previous posts one way or the other.

Mike

Yes, I think I have views - although you pose a difficult question and I hope I'm addressing the correct issue for you. Apologies if not.

I see the status of the "Unknown Soldier" as being different, even from other "unknown soldiers". He is there to represent the collective loss of life. We will never know who he was nor, I suggest, would we ever want to. As such, we don't remember him as a person only as a political statement. I use the word "political" in a considered way. It is my conviction that there was lot of political statement making over remembrance issues in the immediate post war period, much seeking to justify the loss of life as a "great sacrifice". It carries through to the present day as part of the popular culture of the war.

On the other hand, my interest in the war is about individual men. Not heroes; not special men - but very ordinary men who did some extraordinary things and, certainly, lived through some very extraordinary times. I find it hard to think and remember on a wide collective scale and when I say the words "We will remember them" - well, frankly, I'm speaking a little porkie. But what I have done is hold a thought for an individual. It may be a relative; it may be someone I've researched, but it will always be someone I know something about.

I think I understand George when he says that he would be embarrassed if the names of one his relatives was to appear in a thread, followed by loads of posts along the "Not forgotten" or "Rest in peace" lines. Up-thread, I suggested this is similar to the leaving of flowers at the site of a stranger's road accident. It is generally harmless but I would hate it if anyone did it at the site of the death of any of my family.

John

[stevem49]

Also consider,the Leaders,who lost their lives,in WW1

Sorry - What leaders are these who were killed?

Are you making the assumption that those killed would have ended up leading the nation or that leaders were killed.

sm

[CT-Guards]

Each to their own!

However I am still confused over the content's of some postings on this thread.

Is not the wreath laying at the Cenotaph (translate Greek - Empty Tomb), to commerorate the 'Glorious Dead' Is this not someone else laying flowers to commemorate the loss of those including our own loved one's?

Regards

[John_Hartley]

However I am still confused over the content's of some postings on this thread.

Me, too.

Is not the wreath laying at the Cenotaph (translate Greek - Empty Tomb), to commerorate the 'Glorious Dead'

Exactly my point about the politics of remembrance