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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Welch or Welsh


Lyffe

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As Geraint has said the phrase means In memory of a Father and a Grandfather. Without going too deep into Welsh grammar (which I couldn't anyway!!) in this phrase the 'dad' comes from 'tad' which is father and the thaid comes from taid which is grandfather. The first letters of the words have been mutated under Welsh grammar rules into d and th ( 'th' is a letter in it's own right in Welsh, as are ch,dd, ff,ll, rh, and some others I think...but no J, K or V)

What I find intriguing is that it implies that Pte Cleary was a loved and missed Father and Grandfather. Yet he was 20 years old when he died!!

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=100521

And as for there being a Welsh phrase on his grave. SDGW has him born and enlisted Manchester. Now I know that Lloyd George our famous Welsh WW1 leader was born in Manchester but I don't think we claimed that city as 'ours' way back then. (Liverpool maybe but not Manchester). Pte Cleary though enlisted into the 13th RWF which is regarded as the 1st North Wales Pals Battalion. His Service records are on Anceatry and the first few pages show as straight forward attestation on Manchester in May 1915 and allotted that number in the 13th RWF. Wasn't this a time when they could choose their units?

I've looked them up in the 1901 Census and all the family are shown as born Manchester.

So, a bit of a mystery why this disc is on this grave.

And I know we like a bit of a mystery!

Any suggestions anyone?

I'll start off with that I think it may be from an adjoining grave and has somehow been misplaced on the wrong grave.

Hywyn

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The disc on the grave, I imagine is of the north Wales idiom, and If so made from Ffestiniog slate not so long ago, as the white lettering has not 'weathered'. Llanberis slate would be of a purplish tint?

Hwyl

Kevin

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Hywyn,

Nice piece of research, and interesting, because I too had similar questions.

I had wondered : is this a sign that had been made specifically for that specific grave (looks as something that I could not make myself). Or is it some sort of standard sign, that can be found near other headstones too ? Or was it put there at random, by visitors who wanted to honour other Welshmen nearby as well. Many of the graves in that row are Royal Welsh Fusiliers or Welsh Regiment (fallen on or near 31 July 1917). And in a way, "all" or most fallen men are dads and grandads...

Now that I think of it, maybe I should have had a look in the Visitors' book ? But then : is there a Visitors' book in Dragoon Camp Cemetery ? (Very small. And also : on of the hardly visited cemeteries, also because it is far from the road (400 meters long path)

Aurel

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Yes, nice research Hywyn. Nothing is simple! Slate engravings like that are fairly common in Wales, with housenames frequently done in that way. There are quite a few hobby engravers in this town, and ironmongers often provide the service. You can also buy drinks coasters, table settings etc in slate, often lightly engraved. Kevin is right about the colouring. He comes from the Ffestiniog slate area; Hywyn from the Llanberis/Dinorwig slate area, and I come from the Berwyn slate area. All three areas have a distinctive colouring which identifies them. (Berwyn being a dark grey purple' mostly used for monumental work and snooker tables).

Keeping on topic; it would be interesting to see how many slate CWGC headstones there are, and all the other WW1 related slate monument works (like this plaque) there are!

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Hmm. I'm not sure that there would have been too many Scottish regiments fighting at Crecy - not on the winning side anyway! Certainly not 30 years after Bannockburn and a few hundred years before Britain existed. ;)

I stand by to be corrected!

Roxy

I think 1 of the most senior regiments of the line, if not the most senior, (mmm should have done my ome work ere, I blame the beer) is a Scots regiment, it seems the Scots had some kind of connection with the English throne (Mary maybe), dont know why, as except for tax's, there was nothing up there to go and conquer, thats why the romans never bothered, so although there were no scots at Crecy,(I never said there where scotish comp's there , but that the Welch were granted the right to be called WELCH, which the lowland scots at Bannockburn, who were fighting on the side of the inglish, were called Scottish regiments and had been a long time be4 the welsh oops welch where allowed) if there had been they would have been called Scotish companies, or regiments and would have been singled out as such, the Welch now (or is that Welsh), seeing that the coast was so important to supply any army,(visit the ring of castles that surround the Welch) had been so crushed, they were just part of the inglish army, but after coming to the rescue, how many times? They were granted the right to bear on there enqutraments (terrable spelling but then Im welch:) ) and banners, by royal command, (was it queen Anne?) that they were a Welch Regiment. The first was (I hate to say it) The Royal Welch Fusiliers, 23rd Foot, almost as bad as South Wales Boarders, 24th Foot, no I dont mean it onest, Im welch through and through

41st were never given a county designation by the way! thought I better get that in!

69th, well you want a history of WW1 look now further!

better stop now hic

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  • 5 weeks later...

Ha found it

post-46522-1246724233.jpg

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i remember a number of years ago coming accross a Welsh guardsman's grave near Cambrai with the inscription in Manx! he was from douglas, only one i've seen.

As for slate gravestones, all the local ones to me (well where i was from) in St.Asaph from the Great War are all slate, but not WW2, interestingly enough, all the Great War headstones next to New Cross hospital in Wolverhampton are slate!

matt

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  • 10 years later...

The Welsh / Welch debate is discussed in the early pages of Goodbye to All That by Robert Graves who served WW1 with the regiment. 

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