Welch or Welsh

[Lyffe]

I'd be grateful if someone could explain the difference between 'Welch' and 'Welsh' in respect of 'Royal Welch/Welsh Fusiliers'. I have the service record of a WW1 officer, commissioned from the ranks, that uses 'Welch' throughout. However, there is a contemporary photo of a group of officers on this forum

that uses 'Welsh'. Elsewhere contributors use both terms, often switching from one to another even within the same post.

Apologies if the question has been asked previously, but if it has I can't find it.

Rather confused.

Brian

[Pete1052]

The preference for the unusual spelling is said to have been an idiosyncracy of the regiment. I vaguely recall reading on this forum a long time ago that the army eventually agreed to recognize that version as being official, which means both spellings have been correct at different points in time. Grumpy knows a lot about the regiment so if he doesn't respond to this thread try sending him a PM.

[Robert Dunlop]

Mark Urban touches on this in the preface to his superb book "Fusiliers: How the British Army Lost America but Learned to Fight" (ISBN: 9780571224883):

"When writing I was at first tempted to quote these protagonists with their eighteenth-century spelling intact, but at length I realised it would just be too confusing. I have allowed myself the odd exception, such as 'serjeant' rather than the 'sergeant' more widely used today. The 23rd's title provides a case in point about inconsistency in period spelling. Some spelled it 'Welsh', whereas others used the archaic 'Welch' that the regiment considers correct today. As for 'Fusiliers' it can be found as Fuziliers, Fuzilleers and even Fusileers. My editor did not share my early enthusiasm for giving this book the title 'Fuziliers'"

Robert

[George1916]

During the Boer War and WW1 the regiment was officially called Welsh but in 1920 it became Welch under Army Order 56. This took it back to the name orignally used prior to the Boer War.

[Lyffe]

Thank you for your quick responses gentlemen. Obviously both terms were/are correct.

Brian

[Aurel Sercu]

Brian,

See also here :

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...23&hl=welch

Aurel

[evolution]

Following the Battle of Crecy, where the Welch Companys saved the British line and did excelent service, a royal decree was made, that brought the Welsh into line with the Scottish Regiments, that from then on the Welch could wear on there badges and banners the designation that they were Welch, they had not been allowed to do so before this. As at the time the written word was old english, and welsh was spelt welch.

I cannot comment on the RWF, only the Welch.

On the 27/01/1920 came the official recognition of THE WELCH REGIMENT'S dogged insistance on their 'C' spelling, which for 90 YEARS had been doggedly rejected by authority,( the RWF had unofficially persisted with there 'c' since 1727). The following letter was addressed to "The Officers Commanding 1st and 2nd Bns. The Welch Regiment':

Sir,

I am directed to inform you that the

spelling of the word 'Welch' in the titles of

The Royal Welsh Fusiliers and The Welsh

Regiment is approved, but the change is to

take effect at once only in the regard to

the spelling in the Army List and official

correspondence

I am to say that large stocks of cap

badges titles etc. are on hand and that

immediate changes cannot take place

until such stocks are used up.

I am to add that no public expense

can be sanctioned in connection with the

Colours until new ones are required in the

ordinary course.

And as too the comment "some other regiment"

When the RWF were allowed in 2005 to join The Royal Regiment of Wales.

This "other regiment" consisting 2 of the leading regiments of the line in the British Army, SWB 24th Foot/ The Welch Regiment 41st Foot (The Invalids), both regiments battle honours are unparalled, indeed, you can follow the battle honours from 1914-18, and not miss a battle! And the only army colours to bear naval battle honours! Battle of the Saints 12/04/1782, St Vincent 14/02/1797. (The old 2nd Btn Welch 69th Foot disbanded 1947) You will find those honours on the colours of the regiment today!

In 1969, at the insistance of the WO, Wales had to lose a regiment, The RWF, stuck to there we are "senior", the SWB and Welch rather than see the loss of a fine old regiment with all its history chose to amalgimate and that other regiment was born!!!!

I WAS THERE

At 1035 on the 11/06/69 the massed bands struck up " Men of Harleck" and from the south gate of cardiff castle marched on the two Guards of the 1st Btn SWB, 184 officers and men with there colours, they took up position in front of the ancient castle keep. Then the band struck up 'Ap Shenkin' and a similair contingent of the 1st Btn The Welch Regiment marched on from the north gate, and took up post to the left of the SWB, they were lead by Taffy XII wearing for the last time his cerominial coat with the Welch badge and colours.

As the castle clock struck 1100 they were called to attention and HRH The Prince of wales was driven on parade, he was dressed in the uniform of the new regiment, as Colonel in Chief, and carring the sword presented to him a few weeks earlier by both Regiment's.

he then inspected the parade and then took his place on the saluting base.

L/Col Napier the final command to the SWB "The South Wales Boaderers will lay down there arms-ground arms.

Then Lieutenant Colonel Cutler, " The Welch Regiment will lay down there arms-ground arms.

Every body by now had stood up!

Then came the very first order of command to the new regiment,"Royal Regiment of Wales will take up arms. Take up-arms!

And so, in the historic setting of Cardiff castle, 2 Welch Regiments had passed away, to hand on their traditions to there successor.

I think the RWF should be thankfull they were allowed to join us!

[geraint]

The archaic form Welch has it's roots in Shakesperean period English (early 17th century) in which thousands of English words had a variety of spelling modes, with no perceived correct form in existence. Words were spelt according to personal author perceptions, phoenetics, common usage and fads.

There is a school of thought that the revival of Royal 'Welch" Fusiliers in 1920 gave the regiment an ancient gravitas and historic splendour which would give it authority at the end of the war when battalions and regiments were being disbanded.

'Welsh' comes from the Anglo Saxon word 'wealsch' meaning 'foreigners',which is how the 6th century Saxon invaders viewed the inhabitants of these isles. The inhabitants themselves called themselves 'Cymry' meaning comrades. Cymry being the people, and 'Cymru' being the land. An 8th century anglicisation of 'Cymru' produced 'Cymbry' or Cambria. This can also be seen not only in Wales proper but in other parts of Britain which survived the anglo saxon invaders for centuries such as Cumberland = Cymruland'; also Northumbria = North Cymruland.

[Dragon]

I hestitate to argue, but Northumbria derives from Old English Norþhymbre - norþ + Humbre, covering the kingdom of the Anglo-Saxon heptarchy north of the Humber. Put simply, Northumbrian was spoken north of a line drawn from the Mersey estuary to the Humber.

Welsh in Old English is Welisć or Wælisć. These are the Kentish and Anglian spellings. Welsh had became the principal surviving form of spelling by the 16th century, apart from the surname 'Walsh' which preserves another spelling variant and the name 'Wallace' which derives from another Anglo-Norman variation (from waleis).

(Sorry - þ is the closest this font gives to thorn and the font won't give me the diacritics.)

Gwyn

[MBrockway]

I hestitate to argue, but Northumbria derives from Old English Norþhymbre - norþ + Humbre, covering the kingdom of the Anglo-Saxon heptarchy north of the Humber. Put simply, Northumbrian was spoken north of a line drawn from the Mersey estuary to the Humber.

Welsh in Old English is Welisć or Wælisć. These are the Kentish and Anglian spellings. Welsh had became the principal surviving form of spelling by the 16th century, apart from the surname 'Walsh' which preserves another spelling variant and the name 'Wallace' which derives from another Anglo-Norman variation (from waleis).

(Sorry - þ is the closest this font gives to thorn and the font won't give me the diacritics.)

Gwyn

Ah! Happy memories of Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Primer come flooding back!

Cheers,

Mark

[Dragon]

I prefer Bruce Mitchell's 'A Guide to Old English'. My specialism is Middle English, though.

[Guest]

A bit like Sergeant, and Serjeant?

Mike

[MBrockway]

I prefer Bruce Mitchell's 'A Guide to Old English'. My specialism is Middle English, though.

Crikey Gwyn - my dissertation was on Mediaeval Romances! Course, I've forgotten most of it now though that derivation of Cumberland above stills look odd to me.

Small world eh?

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

A bit like Sergeant, and Serjeant?

Mike

Another example is Bydand - the motto of Clan Gordon, steadfast, but literally meaning biding which uses the Middle Scots/Northern Middle English -and form of the present participle which was ousted in Modern English by the -ing form adopted in the southern half of England

I'm sure Gwyn will correct me if I'm wrong, as I am rusty on my history of the language stuff these days!

We had a thread on Bydand about a year ago I think.

Cheers,

Mark

[Muerrisch]

During the Great War, the official rendering was with an 's' on Colours, badges, buttons and the Army List.

All battalions, as far as I have been able to check, persisted with the 'c' spelling throughout in internal usage.

I might add that the merger with junior Welsh regiments a few years back was viewed with horror except for the purposes of putting a brave face on hardship.

[Aurel Sercu]

Sorry, it's not that I intend to hijack this topic, but could someone translate :

Er cof am dad a thaid,

as written on this sign at a headstone ?

(photographed yesterday evening at Dragoon Camp Cemetery, Boezinge)

Dutch would be nice, but English is perfect too.

And does this shape have a specific function or meaning ? (disc with at the back a bar (8 inches ?) to fix it in the ground)

Aurel

[larney]

Hi Aurel,

My Welsh isn't very good, as I got kicked out of it in school , but the disc roughly translates to 'In Memory of Dad and Grandfather'

I don't know what the Dutch is!

Steve.

[Aurel Sercu]

Steve,

Thanks.

I was asking myself if this was some sort of standard phrase, or something more personal. I thought I had seen it elsewhere but don't remember the exact words. And indeed, I was wondering if "dad" meant ... "dad".

So it appears to be something personal, not stereotype or standard phrase ...

As to the "Dutch", that was only meant to tease.

Aurel

[Angular]

I plugged it into an on-line translation service, and got something like, "For memories of my father, I ask my grandfather", which I quite like.

As my knowledge of Welsh is confined to "Dim sugar, diolch", I wouldn't regard my translation as authoritative....

[Roxy]

Following the Battle of Crecy, where the Welch Companys saved the British line and did excelent service, a royal decree was made, that brought the Welsh into line with the Scottish Regiments

Hmm. I'm not sure that there would have been too many Scottish regiments fighting at Crecy - not on the winning side anyway! Certainly not 30 years after Bannockburn and a few hundred years before Britain existed.

I stand by to be corrected!

Roxy

[geraint]

You got it right! Er cof am Dad a Thaid means In memory of a father and a grandfather.

Aurel - no specific meaning apart for it's obvious family rememberance. It's a common phrase found on all gravestones under the sun in all languages. I see your point though - many Welsh gravestones do contain a quote, or a line of poetry, which would be far more poignant. You are aware of Hedd Wyn buried at Boesinge (if I recall) who was a well known poet in Wales. The disc appears to be Welsh Slate, therefore the fallen soldier MAY have had connections with a slate area; though slate is ubiquitous throughout Wales regarding gravestones. Quite a few CWGC stones in Wales are from slate.

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Geraint, for your reply.

You are aware of Hedd Wyn buried at Boesinge (if I recall) who was a well known poet in Wales.

And yes, I know Hedd Wyn's headstone, and the epitaph Prifardd Hedd Wyn, at Artillery Wood Cemetery.

And, should you be interested in this subject, also that in Essex Farm Cemetery (this used to be Boezinge too) there is one with (if my information is correct) a line

"Mwya garw, marw ymhell" (Worst of all he died far away), which is (again if my information is correct) a verse from a poem of another Welsh poet who won the Eistedfodd, entitled "Hedd Wyn".

And as I am interrupting this Topic with things that are not really relevant to the Topic Question (apologies) :

Is my information that :

"Bhasaic e air son / gu'm biodh sinne beo" (on a headstone in Bard Cottage Cemetery) is not Cymru but Gaelic, correct ? (Well, as the man is of a Seaforth Highlanders Battalion it must be Gaelic I guess ?)

Aurel

[Lyffe]

Don't apologise Aurel,

Although my original query was answered early on, I've been fascinated by all the subsequent posts. I'm sure that if someone has a similar query at a future date they will find a very comprehensive answer in this thread.

Brian

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Brian.

Yes, it seemed your question was anwered indeed, and as I did not find it worthwhile to open a new topic for my own simple first question (translation of Er cof am dad a thaid), I took the liberty of hijacking yours.

Aurel

[geraint]

This is indeed the beauty of the Forum Brian; with associated sub-questions naturally spinning off the main topic, and creating an excellent synthesis.

Not Welsh Aurel, as you say for a Seaforths man it's Gaelic. Although a sister-language to Welsh, I can't make it out.Apologies for miss-spelling Boezinge.

Geraint