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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Mathias Williams, Royal Engineers


Trebrys

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Thanks again, Steve. He must have come home on leave - the wedding was August 1918 - then went back. Reason I know this is address on back of woven silk carte postale - Happy New Year on the front and addressed to Mrs Maggie Emma Williams. No message, apart from 'your loving husband Mathias'. All previous cards had long message in Welsh each time, of which I can decipher small bits.

What gets me is the journey involved for getting from wherever in France to a small village in North-West Wales, - a marathon surely at the time. Do you know anything about leave entitlement? Or anywhere I can look it up?

Brenda.

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At the end of 1917, the allowance went up to 14 days (from 10 days), seemingly about once a year. The leave ended at 0630 hours on the 14th day at Victoria Station, so that I assume the leave clock also started on arrival in England (although that is an assumption.) It always struck me that this was a bit unfair, as if you had to travel to the extremities of the UK, some of your leave went on travel to/from home.

Lots of cases of Absent Without Leave due to reporting to Victoria Station Rail Transport Officer (RTO) a day late in the Quarrymen's records. Generally this led to a few days confined to camp as a punishment.

Regards,

Dave

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Thanks, Dave. Another interesting snippet of information. Trouble is, I keep thinking of new things I want to ask. (I've been told that this is a common complaint once you start on something like this!!!)

You mentioned William John and Evan Hughes enlisting on 20.02.17 in Bangor, and your opinion that Mathias would also have gone on the same day. The question is, how did you know about those two men, and how did you find out that they went on that particular day? (Did you have cause to look them up for somebody?)

The second bit is this : is it possible (for me!!!) to find where a particular company was sent, etc? And would there still be records of the names of the men in 325 or 326? I'm also interested in the concert party angle and have been wondering if narrowing the whereabouts of these companies would help me find out more about this. Thinking of things like would 325/326 be attached to another 'unit' (sorry, ain't got the terminology!) or did quarrying companies operate independently?

I looked up the Spring Offensive of 1918. Remember I'm no historian, and my knowledge of the Great War is very sketchy (but growing!), but it has set me thinking : If he had been caught up in this as you think, then no wonder he looks so haunted in his wedding photo! And am I right in thinking that going back at the end of 14 days' leave in August would have thrown him straight back into the beginnings of Trench flu of September?

This BTW is the only wartime 'story' he told. He thought he was getting the flu and decided on self-treatment. This involved 'sweating it out' which he did by drinking a whole bottle of something similar to Worcester sauce at one go... He was convinced that this saved him.

Cheers and thanks again

Brenda.

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Brenda,

I am still speculating about being caught up in the German Offensive. I know that the service record of a couple of men in 325 shows GSW (gun shot wounds) at the end of March. No mention of the Quarrying Companies in action in the Official History, although a Battalion of Canadian Railway Troops who had no training were used to reinforce the line in front of Amiens, as were a unit of US Army Engineers. Still looking for firm proof however.

I am building up a database of men in the Quarrying Companies, by wending my way through the on-line Ancestry Records. Not too sure why I started, but I suppose it was a nice obscure area, with strong links to Leicestershire. When Ancestry release the Ws (later in the Summer, according to the rumour mill) Mathias will join his colleagues (assuming his records survived the German Bombing in 1941) on it. The complete database will allow me to assess joining dates, the disbandment of units in 1919 (by transfers from units en-masse), and lots of other things.

Unfortunately, there is only one War Diary at the National Archives, for 348 Company. Not sure what the Royal Engineers Museum has, but it is on my list to visit later this year, so will find out soon. I understand that the Darbishire Papers at Bangor have some information on the Quarrying Companies, as Captain Darbishire was OC 320 Company, but I don't know what is there.

With regard to the Summer of 1918, do you mean trench fever or flu?

Regards,

Dave

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I'm also interested in the concert party angle and have been wondering if narrowing the whereabouts of these companies would help me find out more about this. Thinking of things like would 325/326 be attached to another 'unit' (sorry, ain't got the terminology!) or did quarrying companies operate independently

Brenda,

He may even have performed in more than one party. Some men made guest appearances with other parties.

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[With regard to the Summer of 1918, do you mean trench fever or flu?]

Not sure. He was only specific about the 'cure'!!!

The Darbishires are connected with Trefor. One of my father's best friends was a Darbishire (Stephen, I think). Would have made sense therefore for his father to be roughly the same age as Mathias. Charles Stephen Darbishire was Manager of Trefor quarry from 1918 to 46, and, if he did enlist, would have taken his men with him (?).

Thanks again, Dave. Maybe I'll shut up for a while now and let you get on with it ?! :rolleyes:

And thanks, Kate. An individual would presumably be more difficult to trace.

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Found names of village men who died in Great War (gleaned from gravestones of parents or from families by local amateur historian).

Jacob Banham, fell in France 1918

Captain Henry William Hughes (48)- sinking of SS Cymrian, Aug 25th 1917

John Moses Hughes (18) - France, Aug 14th 1918

William Hugh Hughes (25) - Mesopotamia, Feb 9th 1917

Evan Wellwood Jones (24) - Royal Welsh Fusiliers, died London, 12th Jan 1917

John Stephen Jones (22) - R.G.A, Ypres, Jul 17th 1917

Robert Owen Jones (23) - France, end 1917 or beg. 1918

William Caradog Jones (27) - Ypres, Nov 9th, 1917. Buried in St.Geans Farm

John Rowlands (19) - SS Cymrian (my mother's 1st cousin)

William Henry Thomas (21) - France, buried Apr 10th 1918 in Croix de Bac (Nord)

William Watkinson (32) - Somme, March 1918

Augustus Henry Wheeler - Dardanelles, Sept 1915. An officer and quarry manager from 1901 until his death.

All with a story to tell...

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[With regard to the Summer of 1918, do you mean trench fever or flu?]

Not sure. He was only specific about the 'cure'!!!

It is just that I have never heard the flu called "trench". Generally known as Spanish, I think.

The Darbishires are connected with Trefor. One of my father's best friends was a Darbishire (Stephen, I think). Would have made sense therefore for his father to be roughly the same age as Mathias. Charles Stephen Darbishire was Manager of Trefor quarry from 1918 to 46, and, if he did enlist, would have taken his men with him (?).

Thanks again, Dave. Maybe I'll shut up for a while now and let you get on with it ?! :rolleyes:

Captain C.S. Darbishire joined up in January 1917, and took the first 1917 formed company to embark for France - 321 Company - to France. This was, in the main, a bunch of Guernseymen, and shortly afterwards a Guernsey officer arrived to take command. He then commanded 320, which seems to have been , from the surnames, a very Welsh company. No file for Captain Darbishire is available at the National Archives, so I assume he had a role in WW2. I imagine there was a large smattering of Trefor men in 320. Unfortunately, from what I have seen, there are only a very small number of surviving records for 320 men.

Happy to help as that is what the Forum is about. Furthermore, it is nice to get beyond the names, ranks & numbers to the men. So don't be shy about asking about anything else.

Cheers,

Dave

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Captain Darbishire's file has a "P" reference, so is indeed one of the later post-war records....

post-6536-1244888594.jpg

Commissioned 10-1-1917

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/29928/pages/1165

Left the Army as Captain in 1921:

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/32181/supplements/132

Rejoined in 1940:

CORPS OF ROYAL ENGINEERS.

The undermentioned to be 2nd Lts.: —

9th Feb. 1940: —

Capt. Charles Stephen DARBISHIRE (118516), late R.E.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/348...upplements/1228

Steve.

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Steve,

Thanks - fills in some gaps.

You are obviously an ace at the London Gazette. Is it random chance you had the right bit of WO338 (Officer's File Register), or do you have a lot of it?

Cheers,

Dave

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All of it.... It is available on Documents online as a Free download, but they are 150mb to 200mb+ downloads each x 23 !!!

Steve.

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I don't believe it! I've actually 'found' something that's not known by Dave, ie that Steve has access to all these copies of the Gazette. Anything else you want me to dig up for you lot?!! :D

Just being extra cheeky now : could you look up Trevor Maldwyn Williams, called up 1941, rank Captain, for me PLEASE Steve? I Know this is the wrong war and don't even know if it's allowed ... but just thought it was worth trying.

Thanks to you both once again.

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No, it's not allowed. Ssssh, don't tell anyone....

London Gazette 30-12-1941

ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS.

The undermentioned to be 2nd Lts. (M.M. Branch): —

13th Oct. 1941: —

Corpl. Alexander Rosborough SHARPE (121000), from R.A.C.

22nd Nov. 1941: —

Jack ASHWORTH, B.Sc. (216810). Alan Henry BALDWIN, B.Sc. (216811). Bernard Thomas BARBER, B.Sc (216812). Daniel Llewellyn CARPENTER, B.Sc. (217790). Tom Frederick Stacey COOPER, B.Sc. (216815). Dennis Temperley COULTAS (216878). Geoffrey DODD, B.Sc. (216881). Roy McGregor DOHOO (216817). Robert Arthur EDEN, B.Sc. (216882). Peter William Russell EGGITT (216883). Leonard Sidney FLUTTER, B.Sc. (21688-4). George Gordon FOWLIE, B.Sc. (216885). Spr. William Donald GALE (216783), from R.E. Kenneth HARGREAVES, B.Sc. (216821). Lce.-Corpl. Felix Rudolph Paul JUNG (211504), from P. Corps. Lancelot LAYCOCK, B.Sc. (216823). Roy Lockley LUPTON, B.Sc. (216830). Alexander Davidson MCKENZIE, M.A. (216899). Noel William MILLER, B.Sc. (216831). Robert Percy READ (216901). John Boris TAYLOR, B.Sc. (216834). John Douglas THOMAS, B.Sc. (216835). Frank William TROWSE, B.Sc. (216909). Trevor Maldwyn WILLIAMS, B.Sc. (216910). Eric Douglas WILLS (216911). Joseph Thomas WILTSHIRE, B.A. (216838). Frederick Walter WOOD (216414). Reginald James WORRALL, B.Sc. (216912).

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/353...upplements/7374

All those Degrees suggest something scientific!

LG 6-11-1942

ROYAL ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL ENGINEERS.

The undermentioned, from R.A.O.C., in the rank as stated, ist Oct. 1942, retaining their present seniority: —

Lts.: —

O. C. George (167064). H. Kay (142955). R. W. Lovegrove (154570). C. V. F. Manning, M.C. (118703).

War Subs Lts: —

C. V. Alliston-Greiner (185448). G. J. Clarke, B.Sc. (227894). J. F. E. Clarke (184183). R. G. Cockerham, B.Sc. (221926). J. A. Cooper (185261). R. R. Dargavel (211540). E. -W. Devenish (181080). E. J. A. Duncan (230368). J. H. Edgington (231014). H. C. Freeman (231851). M. W. Ginger (205832), R. K. Goldsworthy (225812). H. G. Good (199975). E. L. Gowar, B.Sc. (205669). L. Green (223003). H. W. A. Griffiths (155647) T. A. W. Hailes (185885). A. W. Harrod (226141). P. Harker (221303). A. W. D. Hartley, B.Sc (221304). E. Homer (227075). A. D. G. Isherwood (175291). J. S. Jamieson (205793). A. J. M. Jenner (225817). A. A. Jones (231016). C. J. T. Kempster (181035). V. Kevins (216252). F. H. King '225311). R. H. F. Laxen (231852). S. W. S. MacQueen (160685). T. W. N. McCallum (231018). L. A. Manning (227287). G. Mercer (231020). A. G. Milne (188382). D. A. Mitchell (188031). I. Moss (205265). S. Patterson (202488). R. I. Porter (164406). H. V. Rees (178145). H. A. Robertson, B.Sc. (223017). D. Royston (154739). R. E. W. Saunders (227295). G. R. Spence (168793). N. H. Sturgess, B.Sc. (231025). T. H. Sutcliffe (178018). R. F. Tarry (168619). A. R. Thompson (225826). F. W. Trowse, B.Sc. (216909). A. T. Twine (230819). E. A. Walsh (227072). F. L. Waterhouse, M.Sc. (230102). C. R. Webb, B.Sc. (231029). T. M. Williams,

.B.Sc. (216910). D. E. Woollett, B.A. (223832). T. W. Yule (225733).

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/357...upplements/4803

Steve.

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All of it.... It is available on Documents online as a Free download, but they are 150mb to 200mb+ downloads each x 23 !!!

Steve.

Steve,

Thanks for that info. It means that I don't need to spend a large portion of my (relatively infrequent) trips to Kew searching for the elusive Lt Brown/Smith, etc..... All I got to do is to get the things downloaded.

Thanks,

Dave

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I don't believe it! I've actually 'found' something that's not known by Dave

Brenda,

It is actually more amazing that you asked about something known by me. I was a complete novice when I started out researching the local War Memorial, but as a result of a lot of reading, and guidance from the GWF Pals, I know a bit more. But compared to a number of the guys & gals I know nothing.... (Several well-known authors are active members.)

Dave

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  • 2 months later...

A bit of a breakthrough on the Creetown link, I think. Whilst perusing some records on Ancestry, I have found three men of the Quarrying companies who have had "Creetown" written on their enlistment forms.

See the attached. I think I recognise the handwriting but but need to do some further checking.

All three have similarities in that they have very similar numbers 262179, 262183 & 262187. (These compare with Mathias' number of 262195.) In addition they all served with 326 Q Coy. They seem to be having their innoculations at Buxton in mid-May and embarked for France on 22nd May.

So it seems there was a group of men who went from Buxton to Creetown, although no mention of it in their records...

Dave

post-285-1250521123.jpg

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If Mathias Williams worked at the quarry at Trefor it was one owned by the Darbishire family and there is quite a lot of information at the Univeristy College North Wales - Bangor -regarding the work that men from the quarry did on the Western Front. The quarry made setts [like paving stones] and their skills were needed to help build vital roads out in France and Flanders.

Other men from the other Darbishire quarry joined the 6th Battalion RWF and saw action at Suvla Bay, moved on to Egypt and saw action in Palestine.

I hope this helps with your research.

Maricourt

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  • 3 weeks later...

Maricourt,

I look forward to chasing up info in Bangor once children back in school and I get my act together ;) .

Just one point : I had always understood that CSDarbishire (father and son) were actually managers and not owners of the quarries. The actual company was the Welsh Granite Co Ltd, which became Penmaenmawr and Welsh Granite, then Kingston Minerals Co Ltd. CSDarbishire (son) was manager from 1918 - 1946, and lived in Plas yr Eifl where the previous manager AHWheeler had also lived. Mr Darbishire was apparently very well liked and respected by the workforce and villagers. I have vague memories of seeing him when I was in primary school and during village events.

Brenda.

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Maricourt,

CSDarbishire (son) was manager from 1918 - 1946, and lived in Plas yr Eifl where the previous manager AHWheeler had also lived.

A.H. Wheeler was also an officer with a Quarrying Company, although I don't recollect which one.

Dave

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I am building up a database of men in the Quarrying Companies, by wending my way through the on-line Ancestry Records. Not too sure why I started, but I suppose it was a nice obscure area, with strong links to Leicestershire. When Ancestry release the Ws (later in the Summer, according to the rumour mill) Mathias will join his colleagues (assuming his records survived the German Bombing in 1941) on it. The complete database will allow me to assess joining dates, the disbandment of units in 1919 (by transfers from units en-masse), and lots of other things.

Hi Dave

Just wondered whether or not the rumour mill was correct?

Regards

Brenda.

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Hi Dave

Just wondered whether or not the rumour mill was correct?

Regards

Brenda.

There is another thread about this. Seems Ancestry are not being too forthcoming about their plans.

The A.H. Wheeler to whom I referred is Archibald H. Wheeler, who went to France in 1917, so obviously isn't the same man.

If you are going to Bangor, I would be interested in what you find. I might make a trip there, if it is worth it.

Regards,

Dave

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Augustus Henry Wheeler. Bit of a coincidence.

I'll let you know if/when I get to Bangor..

BTW did you see the Tony Robinson documentary last night ? On More 4 at 9 - A Time Team Special called The Lost World War One Bunker. Called Vampire, had to be abandoned near completion because of German offensive. Very interesting. Helped to fill me in with some of the confusion that's going around in my head anyway.

Regards

Brenda.

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