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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Mathias Williams, Royal Engineers


Trebrys

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I wonder if the powers that be within the Forum's folk can help me flesh out a bit of the history of the grandfather of a friend of mine?

Mathias Williams was a granite quarryman from the seaside village of Trefor, situated just to the west of Caernarfon in Gwynedd. He served with the Royal Engineers throughout the war, but refused to talk about his experiences with his family afterwards.

My friend is interested to try and find anything at all about his time as she knows nothing of his experiences. All she has are a few medals and the following information - Sapper M Willilams 262195. Would this be his regimental number or one given with the decorations? He was born in 1892.........and that's about all I have! His job before the war would have made him familiar with explosives too apparently!

If anyone out there could help in any way I would be most grateful. It does not matter how trivial the information is as my friend has no details at all - not even where he enlisted or where he fought.

Many thanks,

Trebrys.

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Something that could be useful....maybe?

It seems that he was a good bass-baritone and sang with a concert party that entertained the troops too. He was one of the lucky ones from that village as it appears that forty men from that village were killed in the war.

Regards,

Trebrys.

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As ever....eviltaxman to the rescue!!

Many thanks......I know she'll be delighted with this! Do the numbers mean anything?

Thanks,

Trebrys.

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Looks like he switched "jobs" within the RE.... from a regular Sapper to one in the WR - Waterways & Railways, so his explosives knowledge may have helped carve out the rivers or new tracks.

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Again, many thanks! I've popped over to his granddaughter's with a copy of the MIC and she thanks you very much too!

Regards,

Trebrys.

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Looks like he switched "jobs" within the RE.... from a regular Sapper to one in the WR - Waterways & Railways, so his explosives knowledge may have helped carve out the rivers or new tracks.

It's distinctly possible he didn't switch jobs, the WR (Waterways & Railways) is a bit of a misnomer as the 1918 renumbering in this sequence also included the Road Construction Companies and Quarry Companies. These companies were generally renumbered with a five digit number and the WR prefix so I'd suggest it puts him in one of these two, based on his civilian occupation I'd suggest the latter of the two.

According to the "Work of R.E. in the European War 1914-19" as of 11th November 1918 there were 13 Quarry Companies in France (198, 199, 320 to 329 and 348).

Regards

Steve

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Trebrys,

Steve is right, he didn't switch jobs. The WR prefix is for units within the RE Transportation Branch, and the Roads & Quarries Troops were renumbered into the WR sequence on 1st March 1918. He definitely served with one of the Quarrying Companies.

In outline, he was sent to Buxton on mobilisation in early 1917. Here he was checked out and approved for quarrying skills before going to France. The men were not trained in any military skillls. All the Quarrying Companies were in France by early June 1917, except 348 which went out in October 1917. (His 262xxx & WR295xx numbers suggest that he didn't serve with 348.) All the companies except 325, 326 & 348 served in the Marquise/Rinxent area outside Calais, producing stone for making & repairing roads. They worked, in shifts, around the clock.

325 & 326 were elsewhere, and seem to have been caught up in the German offensive of March 1918, so were probably further east towards Amiens.

I will have a look at my notes to make a suggestion as to when he was mobilised, and also which company he was serving with (at least at the time of re-numbering.)

Cheers,

Dave

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Dave,

I see Kelly's Directory of Derbyshire 1910 mentions "the "mountain limestone at the Victory Quarry, Doveholes, two and a half miles north of Buxton".

I don't know the first thing about quarrying, and I imagine there were other quarries in the locality, but may this have been a location for Matthias's training?

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Thank you all very much! I'm chuffed to bits with this information - it would be great to find out where he was. All I know is that he wouldn't talk about what he saw.

Trefor is a quarrying village with plenty of places to gain experience too so he would have been well used to that sort of life. Thanks for the extra information about Derbyshire.

Thank you all once again. I look forward to hearing what you can find, Dave - brilliant stuff so far!

Regards,

Trebrys.

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Hi Trebrys, I've just phoned an old, old friend from Trevor and asked If he knew of Mathias and he is of the opinion that he is related to Mathias through his mother. He will try and find all he can and I will reply to your posting as soon as I hear anything.

Hwyl a chroeso am y tro

Kevin

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Diolch yn fawr, Kevin!

Cofion,

Trebrys.

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Trebrys,

I reckon that Mathias enlisted at Bangor on 20th February 1917, and was posted to the RE Quarrying Companies on 22nd. He probably arrived at Buxton on 23rd February. This is based on two other Trevor residents (William John Hughes & Evan Hughes, whose numbers were 262292 & 262192 respectively,) together with other men with similar numbers. I wonder if all three went down together, as I imagine Trefor wasn't a very big place?

Can't be certain which company Mathias was a member of, due to a sparsity of data, but I am pretty confident that it was 325 or 326. So he didn't spend the war at the Marquise group of quarries, but currently his movements are shrouded in mystery, I am afraid.

Kate,

You might well be right. Before being approved, the men had to be practically tested and confirmed as Sappers, who earnt one shilling a day in engineering pay. If not, there is some evidence that that at this stage they were rejected, although later on they were employed as Pioneers on six pence a day. The quarrymen who didn't go to France left Buxton in the Summer and were attached to the Road Troops Depot at Aldershot.

Cheers,

Dave

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Many thanks once again, Dave.

We are all very grateful for your input. No Trefor is not a big place....and I think I misheard the original information in that"only" around fourteen from there were killed!

Best wishes,

Trebrys.

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Hi

I've decided to step in myself to thank all those who've contributed so far, as I'm Mathias Willimas' grand-daughter. Very much appreciated.

I have a group photo (which I've tried unsuccessfully to attach to this mail- Help!) taken before a building with sign Ellangowan. Google and Google image have helped us identify this as the Ellengowan Hotel, Creetown, Dumfries and Galloway. I've sent a few e-mails up there (3 addresses) but am obviously not pressing the right buttons as no reply yet.

Creetown would make sense as there are granite quarries there, but opinion here seems to be that he would have been sent to Buxton which is much further south. Are there any records of training or soldiers being billetted in Creetown? And would training have been necessary anyway to an experienced quarryman (set cutter - quite a skilled job).

The 2 names (Hughes) might make sense. Possibly William John a cousin, and I seem to remember a barn being called 'Cwt Gwair Ifan Hughes' as a child, but I just wondered if there would be records kept in Bangor of identities and dates when men enlisted?

The only other lead I have is the Concert Party one. Taid was a very good bass baritone - travelled to compete and win as far as he could from the village and locally. Not easy in those days. I have already contacted Kate on this one, and she reckons the dress uniform - white shirt with dark cravate, dark cumerbund, white trousers with dark trim down sides - he is wearing in the studio photo is unusual as most wore pierrot costumes. Any ideas? Again I'd attach photo, but every time I try I simply lose the whole letter i've been typing. Very infuriating!

That's all for now. Again many thanks. And if anyone can tell me how to sort out these blasted attachments...

Brenda.

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Brenda,

Welcome to the Forum. This Creetown link is very intriguing, but I can't shed any light on it! However, there are a fair number of Sappers with the Quarrying Companies who had Creetown addresses.

The evidence about the time at Buxton is that they were tested, and kitted out with uniforms, but that they received no training, military or otherwise. The first company, 321, went to France about 3 weeks after being formed. Subsequent companies went when they had been found suitable officers (quarry owners & managers in the main) who were commissioned into the RE, and they could be accomodated in France.

I would be very interested in seeing the photos.

Regards,

Dave

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Given the Welsh connection at the start of this thread, I thought you might be interested in the following which is taken from the NA file which details the formation of these companies in 1916. There was quite some discussion about their formation and how the men should be recruited and the following suggestion was made:

"The number of men employed in Caernarvonshire should be sufficient to provide and maintain this company.

`The population has been brought up for three generations to have nothing to do with the Army. There are only two ways to get these men:

a) Men over military age of married men

To offer terms of pay that will attract.

i) Pioneer pay is insufficient. Sapper pay plus 1/0d RE pay will be required.

ii ) The men must be raised locally, commanded by a local man, who can speak Welsh.

iii) Mr R Jones, Secretary, Quarrymen's Union can get these men. He would not go under rank of Captain.

B Single men of Military Age

COMPULSION (veiled or open)"

There is some irony with regard to the implied threat in the last paragraph, in that just a few months earlier the Army Council turned down a request that Quarrying Companies should be formed. In a reply to GOC-in-C BEF, from whom the request originated the War Office said "I am commanded by the Army Council to say that additional units such as that proposed can only be provided at the expense of fighting formations." Presumably this was with the planned Somme offensive in mind.

Incidentally, the Marquise and Rinxent quarries mentioned above are near Boulogne with the latter quarry complex being open to visitors. See this link:

http://www.theotherside.co.uk/tm-heritage/...xent-marbre.htm

TR

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Thanks, Dave and Terry. Keep it coming!

An interesting story : some men from the village were actually led by a 'local man', but in this case a very unpopular quarry official (manager?) who was not Welsh-speaking. He was wounded in Gallipoli while leading his men - shot, so rumour has it, in the BACK. I wonder just how often this happened?!!

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This is the War Establishment for a Quarrying Company RE as of July 1916:

Captain 1

Subalterns 3

CSM 1

CQMS 1

Sergeants 4

All of the above were to be RE personnel with military training and were to report with complete personal equipment.

Cpls (foremen) 8

Sappers 244 including 16 L/Cpls

The above were to be issued with personal equipment with sidearms but without rifles.

Cook 1

Batmen 4

The above were to be supplied by the infantry.

Drivers ASC (Horse Transport) 1

Transport :

Bicycles - 4

GS Wagons -1

Draught Horse or Mules - 2

List 0f Trades:

Bootmakers 2

Carpenters & Joiners - 2

Engine Drivers 20 (16 Steam and 4 Internal Combustion)

Gas fitters and Plumbers 2

Masons 2

Platelayer 2

Quarrymen 197

Smiths 4

Tailor 1

Tinsmith 1

Authorised rates of pay on formation:

8 Foremen ranking as Cpls - 2/6d per day plus 1/- to 2/- RE pay according to grade.

16 Steam and 4 Internal Combustion Engine Drivers ranking as Sappers 1/2d per day and pay as for the Cpls above with the same conditions. All engine drivers were subject to a trade test before acceptance.

197 skilled quarrymen ranking as Sappers 1/2d per day according to grade.

TR

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Dave

I've tried all sorts to attach pictures - even read the Help topic which is a new one for me! - but no joy. icon7.gif

Always comes up as 'You did not select file'. Trebrys is equally clueless (I will add 'for once' just in case he refuses to speak to me again).icon9.gif

Can you give me any pointers, or could I possibly send pictures directly to you so that you could post them?

Thanks

Brenda.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just might have got this to work. Picture of my Grandfather in his concert party 'uniform'.

Wonder if this will jog any memories or ideas as things have been quiet lately.

Brenda.

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Brenda,

Welcome to the Forum. This Creetown link is very intriguing, but I can't shed any light on it! However, there are a fair number of Sappers with the Quarrying Companies who had Creetown addresses.

The evidence about the time at Buxton is that they were tested, and kitted out with uniforms, but that they received no training, military or otherwise. The first company, 321, went to France about 3 weeks after being formed. Subsequent companies went when they had been found suitable officers (quarry owners & managers in the main) who were commissioned into the RE, and they could be accomodated in France.

I would be very interested in seeing the photos.

Regards,

Dave

Hi Dave

You'd be welcome to see the photos, but, as I've said, I just can't seem to be able to attach the larger one of the 'group', even though I've tried various formats. The concert party one worked on JPEG, but not this one.

It is interesting : apart from the Ellangowan link, there seem to be small variants in the uniforms, - some of the men have what appears to be braid by the left shoulder (armhole), some have slight differences of buttons on lapels, one has a rather interestingly shaped cap, the officer has slight differences again (as I suppose would be normal).

One other fact : my Grandfather married in 1918, in his uniform, with two stripes on the right sleeve. I cannot see any evidence of these in the previous photo, and there is no rank mentioned on his medal record.

Thanks again for all so far.

Brenda.

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Dave

I think it's just a matter of the size of the image after all. These seem to be working. I could try cropping the Ellangowan one and sending in 2 bits (!) or could e-mail it to you.

Regards

Brenda.

post-45961-1242989970.jpg

post-45961-1242990283.jpg

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Brenda,

With a bit of luck and a fair wind, an image should appear below

20-MathiasWilliamsynyFyddin.jpg

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The stripes on his right sleeve are overseas service stripes. One was awarded for each year served overseas. Blue for 1915 to 1918, and a red one for 1914.

Steve.

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