Violating war graves

[peterhogg]

Grant, well put. QED.

cheers,

peter

[Wrecktec]

Grant

You have missed the point. All the artefacts are from what most people would call war-graves, but none were from Designated and protected War graves and all the artefacts had been reported to RoW; they have been checked out. I also have a good idea which clubs Clio referred to and the guys reponsible, but naming people personally on this or any other website is not the done thing.

Ron

[eviltaxman]

I've been following this thread out of personal interest, but have noticed it's started to slip away from the original theme. Please continue this topic, it's very interesting, but please try to refrain from attempts of trying to get names named. Without any proof, by either party, we (the forum) could be looking at a lawsuit.

Ta very much. As you were gents.

[grantowi]

You have missed the point. All the artefacts are from what most people would call war-graves, but none were from Designated and protected War graves and all the artefacts had been reported to RoW; they have been checked out.

Ron,

I haven't missed any point !

My argument is that ANY place where people have died should be treated as if they are war graves, be it on land or at sea.

According to clio if a diver removes an artifact from a wreck, they are violators, retards etc, if the same item is picked up from the site of a land battle then the finder is a "collector" and is free to show off his finds without any problems

I also have a good idea which clubs Clio referred to and the guys reponsible, but naming people personally on this or any other website is not the done thing.

clio hasn't got to name them on the forum, he can PM them to me.

May I ask how you know the items have been reported to RoW and where they come from?

The fact remains that the original post was about an item supposedly being removed from a war grave, yet the OP is aware of these two clubs that he has allegily visited with walls lined with items removed from war graves and yet there is no mention of either club being reported to ROW.

Its the double standard that is the main issue of this thread

Grant

[grantowi]

but please try to refrain from attempts of trying to get names named. Without any proof, by either party, we (the forum) could be looking at a lawsuit.

I asked for the names of the two diving clubs that the OP had visited, he has stated that he has visited them on this forum. He has even posted a photo of one of them

How can the forum face a lawsuit on that basis ?

I have seem people giving names and details of battlefield tour companys and names of place to stay near to battlefields without the mods jumping in and talking about lawsuits, why is this thread diffrent?

Grant

[Wrecktec]

Grant

I cannot vouch that the artefacts have all been officially reported to ROW, just that I was assured they had been. I also understand your point about sites listed as 'battlefields' or 'land' graves, but this forum deals with WWI ships, navies and the sea; we could go on for ever discussing battlefields and land graves.

I agree that all graves at sea should be shown due respect, however the point Clio is making and what I referred to, was the removal of an item from a listed, protected and designated war grave and then put offered for sale.

Cheers Ron

[TeeCeeCee]

Ron,

I haven't missed any point !

My argument is that ANY place where people have died should be treated as if they are war graves, be it on land or at sea.

[my bold] Grant, that's the bit you're not getting.. we never honour the site where people have died, we hold the grave as sacrelidge.

So your 'picking bits up from a battlefield' or 'having picnics on a battlefield' is not dishonouring the grave. and that's how most people think... we'd never ever remove or dig in a cemetry or at a known grave site.

But battlefields are fair game.

Now as to ships, the govt. has declared them 'war graves' and so that is why they're hands off.

It'd be damn near impossible to treat all battlefields as a 'grave' in the way you mean as large swathes of europe... indeed the world would be grave sites... and I'd include the US, Russia, Europe, The Libyan desert, Burma, etc, etc, etc. Jeez, just think of all the wars in the last century... Boer war, 1st WW with various theatres, abysinia, china, 2nd WW & even more theatres, Korea, indo china, loas, all the African countries, arab/israel, you wouldn't be able to build a house or plan a new road for fear of building upon a battlefield. We'd all live in little over-crowded clusters.

[grantowi]

we never honour the site where people have died, we hold the grave as sacrelidge.

So your 'picking bits up from a battlefield' or 'having picnics on a battlefield' is not dishonouring the grave. and that's how most people think... we'd never ever remove or dig in a cemetry or at a known grave site.

But battlefields are fair game.

Just excactly where abouts do you think the vast number of men that have no known grave are buried ? And when I see groups of people with their heads bowed and laying a wreath in the middle of a field, do I assume that their not paying their respects to some one who died at that spot, but have lost their way to the grave site ?

Why do you not honour the site of death ? are all the battlefield tours just for purpose of walking over a muddy field ?

I'm also greatful to hear that you consider a battlefield as fair game to go relic hunting and are ready to remove any and all personal items that you can dig up, there have been 3,438 views on this thread and you are the first one to give the OK to remove items from battle fields, now if you were a diver you would be a grave robber, retard, etc.

As an aside, why was there a memorial held at Hillsborough football ground recently ? there are no dead people there !!

Now as to ships, the govt. has declared them 'war graves' and so that is why they're hands off.

No, only RN ships and aircraft are classed as war graves, there is no law to prevent entery to such a wreck (only designated protected sites) merchant and civillian ships are not even classed as war graves.

So going by your "rules", it would be OK for me to dive a merchant ship that was torpedoed - some crew died but they were blown overboard in the explosion and some died in the water whilst waiting to be rescued - and remove any personal items that I come across to stick on my mantle piece or maybe sell

Grant

[dycer]

Grant,

Whilst I agree with your moral stance and your views about retrieving articles from maritime war graves be they officially, designated or not.

You have to consider a different issue when discussing the recovery of items from the battlefields of France.

I last visited the WW1 Museum,in Albert in 1999.It is an informative Museum but openly on sale at the exit was a large collection of steel helmets both British and German.

Clearly, due to their state, these had been recovered from the fields in the Somme area and presumably, because they were on open sale, had some official recognition to allow their removal and subsequent sale.

I have to admit the sight left me cold and I was not tempted to purchase one but this was my personal choice.

George

[auchonvillerssomme]

No one has mentioned aircraft wreck sites. You can even buy bits of wreckage off the t'internet...plenty of amateurs digging those up over the years, including me.

Mick

[grantowi]

You have to consider a different issue when discussing the recovery of items from the battlefields of France.

This is where I have a problem, what is the diffrence between a battle field and a wreck when it comes to removing artifacts? A MM ship that sank with 50 men on board isn't considered a "War Grave", as long as I inform RoW (reciever of wrecks) where I got it from, I can remove anything that I want within the law

If some one is digging up those helmets, then there is a good chance that within spitting distance there will be a body, how is this considered OK ?

Grant

[grantowi]

No one has mentioned aircraft wreck sites. You can even buy bits of wreckage off the t'internet...plenty of amateurs digging those up over the years, including me.

Some ones not following the story !

MoDs have said stick to original theme (post 128)

Another member has pointed out "but this forum deals with WWI ships, navies and the sea" (post 131)

So unless you wish to fall foul of the MoDs and the membership, I suggest you start a new thread in the aircraft section

Grant

[TeeCeeCee]

quote By 'Grantowi'

Just excactly where abouts do you think the vast number of men that have no known grave are buried ? And when I see groups of people with their heads bowed and laying a wreath in the middle of a field, do I assume that their not paying their respects to some one who died at that spot, but have lost their way to the grave site ?

Who layes a wreath in the middle of a field? If a family knew there to be remains under the turf, surely they'd have them removed and buried at a proper CGC site? Or surely that would be a known grave?

[Am I right in thinking that once remains are found, they are interred in one of the cemetries? I'm asking]

The remains of the unburied dead are in the battlefiield... but that ground is just a 'battlefield', it doesn't really hold that sacredness that a grave would. I repeat my point about 'swathes of the world being untouchable and fenced off.

Why do you not honour the site of death ? are all the battlefield tours just for purpose of walking over a muddy field ?

No, I think they serve to satisfy an interest (visit the area) and not visit the graves.

I'm also greatful to hear that you consider a battlefield as fair game to go relic hunting and are ready to remove any and all personal items that you can dig up, there have been 3,438 views on this thread and you are the first one to give the OK to remove items from battle fields, now if you were a diver you would be a grave robber, retard, etc.

As an aside, why was there a memorial held at Hillsborough football ground recently ? there are no dead people there !!

Ah come on Grant, don't put words in my mouth. Is it right to dig on a ex-battlefield? Legally... yes... there's no 'law' against it as long as the land-owner permits it.

Morally? Well that's one for ones conscience, I think. I think the 'why?' yo're digging will have a lot to do with it. If you're employed building a road/in constrution or building a garage in your garden for yourself... or if you're a farmer... you are living your everyday life and it's not your fault if you find a skull.

However, if you're after souveniers and you find a skull... well that's on you and if you can look yourself in the mirror. I think. I'm not an 'expert' on all this... this is the first time I've considered such topics. I posted on the thread debating the poit about intruding upon underwater sites the govt. has decreed as 'graves'.... something, I suspect, that most people would concur with as it's respecting the last known resting place of dead men.

On land, the various govt.s do the same. They set aside cemetrys for known graves and all the dead without a known restng place just have the name on a memorial until they are found and then they're interred in the former. But a battlefield isn't a grave... it's a field.

So going by your "rules", it would be OK for me to dive a merchant ship that was torpedoed - some crew died but they were blown overboard in the explosion and some died in the water whilst waiting to be rescued - and remove any personal items that I come across to stick on my mantle piece or maybe sell .

Not my 'rules' old boy... I don't recall writing any. You'll have to live with whatever you do and if you think the above is OK and there's no laws broken...

A little anecdote: I was watching a film recently from divers who'd gone down and filmed some of the Jutland wrecks (I think). One of the divers found a compass, the type on a pedastel with the face on gimbals so it was 'level' whatever way the sea rocked the ship. Anyway, he has a little play with it and moves on.

I thought to myself 'I'll bet that won't be there by nightfall'. Maybe I'm bad-minded but it's hard not to 'tar all with the same brush' as there's no-one round to censor any mis-behavoir and the quite desirable, and maybe valuable objects are there, within reach and pretty available.

p.s. there's a current TV series on Discovery about a comercial salvage operation who salve precious metals/cargo from the seabed... they're the ones who found multi millions $$ in gold and silver frm a spanish ship. They go after merchant shipping that people died on. I'm not sure what to think about them. I know how the Spanish Govt. feel... they think of them as pirates as it was a wreck of one of their naval ships they'd 'plundered'. And the company didn't exactly play by the rules on that one... too much money involved for morals to take prominence.... the $$$ held sway on that one.

[grantowi]

Who layes a wreath in the middle of a field? If a family knew there to be remains under the turf, surely they'd have them removed and buried at a proper CGC site? Or surely that would be a known grave?

That is why they are classed as having "no known grave"

When my Father went to Galipoli to see where his Uncle had fought and died, a member of the tour laid a wreath at the place (as near enough as they could work it out from the war diarys) where his father who was killed by shell fire at the top of Gully ravine. His Father is one of the many with "no known grave", The remains are properly spread over quite an area, but this was the nearest that this man could get to placing a wreath on his fathers grave.

The remains of the unburied dead are in the battlefiield... but that ground is just a 'battlefield', it doesn't really hold that sacredness that a grave would. I repeat my point about 'swathes of the world being untouchable and fenced off.

I bet that if you ask someone whose relative lies unknown on a battlefield, wether they consider the ground to be just a sacred as if it were in a cemetry you would get a diffrent answer to your view.

As far as being fenced off, I dont think this idea has been raised, just that such places should be treated with respect.

Grant

[grantowi]

I'm also greatful to hear that you consider a battlefield as fair game to go relic hunting and are ready to remove any and all personal items that you can dig up.......

Ah come on Grant, don't put words in my mouth.

But didnt you say that "battlefields are fair game"

... But a battlefield isn't a grave... it's a field.

A cemetry is only a field with headstones, why do you feel it's only right to respect a body because it lies with others in a neat little enclosure with a headstone as a marker ?

The bafflefields (sorry "the fields") are full of undiscoverd bodys, do they not deserve your respect ?

Grant

[Wrecktec]

Grant,

The thread was started because someone pilferred from a designated and 'so we thought' a protected war grave and then offered the item for sale. You and I know that, tightly or wrongly, that you can take whatever you wish from a merchant ship or trawler wreck so long as it is reported to RoW as soon as possible and I don't know any diver that would leave a nice artefact like a ship's bell (the ship's heart) behind, knowing full well that the next divers would remove it anyway, EVEN from RN shipwrecks. In 35 years of diving, I've seen an awful lot of things happen and no doubt, still happens, except the latter go unreported for obvious reasons.

I would also think that there would be designated and protected 'battlefield' sites where no one would be allowed to interfere with? I'm not sure where your argument is leading to about honouring the 'fallen' dead. Maybe there should be a blanket ban on diving all wrecks where people have lost their lives. That would certainly stir up a hornets nest, but I can see a lot of people going along with it, especially if a loved one had died on the ship. Not all ships have sunk with the loss of life, but a large majority have.

Cheers Ron