Violating war graves

[ph0ebus]

Tom,

Two people on this thread has suggested that ships sunk with members of the crew still abroad should be classified as war graves and hence not dived upon, I disagree with this argument and made the comparision, I dont feel that they are red herrings (as you call them), they were in answer to "should people be diving on war graves"

The majority of diver will not remove anything form either military OR civillian wrecks, they are all treated with the same respect, there was a big uproar in the diving world when they started to bring items up from the Titanic - there is no need to, there are thousands of photos of the three sister ships - yet not a single word was mentioned about "grave site" or "violating the dead" (they even brought up a pair or boots that some unfortunate was wearing when they hit the sea floor) because it was done in the name of research

Grant

Hi Grant,

I would agree that there should be equal treatment between land and sea war graves. If one can visit a national cemetery and pay respects to those buried there, then so should folks have the right to visit a war wreck and pay respects. My point is there should be legal protections against taking items off wrecks with associated deaths if the reason for said item removal is to decorate one's home with relics or to make a quick buck off of some one else's misfortune. Legitimate scientific inquiry and efforts to ID wrecks and the remains therein are OK reasons to remove items in my book.

As an aside, I am a bit annoyed by the habit of people leaving bronze plaques on wrecks such as Titanic. One is enough, thanks.

-Daniel

[Clio]

There is another dimension to this. I curl my lip in disgust when I learn of people diving war graves, let along lifting stuff. Yet I am perfectly happy to build upon the kind of forensic discoveries that can only be gained by diving ie condition of wreck, evidence of damage (inc underwater videos on U-tube), then tying it all up in a book. That makes me and others like me, into some kind of hypocrite.

Sports divers clearly have a role and a vital role at that. Few academics will ever dive a wreck and hydrography data is too sparse to be meaningful. The problem is dividing the good divers from the criminals. It is the challenge of how to police the legislation.

[grantowi]

There is another dimension to this. I curl my lip in disgust when I learn of people diving war graves, let along lifting stuff..... That makes me and others like me, into some kind of hypocrite.

I had a scan through this forum last night, the number of members who had "picked" items up off of the sites of battles

was amazing and yet not a single mention of "violation", yet someone removes something from a wreck and its a violation - how do you diffrenate between the two ?

I have already stated that it is wrong to remove items from wrecks, I also feel that it should be a crime to remove items from the site of a battle, what people have removed and added to their own collections is now not available to be viewed by new visitors, a view that it seems is not shared by others on here it seems.

Imagine how much better the battle sites would look today if people hadn't stomped all over them picking up every thing they could lay their hands on to stick on their shelves at home, we as divers see the wreck virtually as it was the day it sunk and we have a vested intrest in keeping it that way.

Grant

[grantowi]

My point is there should be legal protections against taking items off wrecks with associated deaths if the reason for said item removal is to decorate one's home with relics or to make a quick buck off of some one else's misfortune.

As I have said above, it seems that it is ok to remove items from the site of a battle to sell or decorate the house judging by the number of forum members who have picked up items, but a diffrent matter when it comes to the items being on wrecks.

There is legal protection for wrecks (military and civillian), and that is the reciever of wrecks, to which every manmade item recovered from the sea should be reported to, they will then decide who it belongs to.

Grant

[1690philip]

Grant,

It is not just forum members that are picking up relics from the battlefield but the locals who then proceed to sell the items to line their own pockets with extortionate prices. All you have to do is visit the Somme or Ypres area most of the sites IE. La Boissell have a mobile shop selling recent finds also the Albert Museum is selling relics.

When I was in Ypres a few of the souvenir shops where doing the same.

So the bigger question is why is the locals making so much money out of this.

A visitor picks up a 303 bullet is that a major crime????

Regards,

Phil

[grantowi]

As an aside, I am a bit annoyed by the habit of people leaving bronze plaques on wrecks such as Titanic. One is enough, thanks.

-Daniel

Look at the plauqe as a kind of wreath, future divers will see it and it will reinforce that the place is a grave as well as a wreck.

peolpe lay wreaths at the same spot year after year, ships may have aquired 2 or 3 plaques in nearly 100 years

Grant

[Clio]

Never mind Daniel, the chances are that the plaques themselves will get nicked.

[ph0ebus]

Never mind Daniel, the chances are that the plaques themselves will get nicked.

That is probably true.

Any update on this particular incudent?

-Daniel

[Clio]

I passed on all the correspondence I had relating to the artefact to the enforcement body concerned. It isn't sub judice yet but as it may be in the future, discussing the matter may prejudice any case, should there be one.

[ph0ebus]

Duly noted. Best of luck.

-Daniel

[grantowi]

Never mind Daniel, the chances are that the plaques themselves will get nicked.

Does that term also apply to all of the members of this forum who have removed items from the sites of battles and display them at home, or indeed post photos on here of their "finds" ?

To all of you who have "nicked" items from battle fields, please hand them over to Clio, who will pass them on to the enforcement bodys concerned.

Grant

[Ghost]

Is'nt it illigal to remove any thing from the Belgium and French battlefields? I thought I read that somewhere on this forum.

Alan

[Ghost]

Maybe the Storra should be dived, to find out if the ships manifest was correct. Or did she indeed have tank (parts) and aircraft?

Alan

[Wrecktec]

Hi Grant

H5 is the same as the Royal Oak, however for some reason divers seem to respect that wreck, or is it the fear of being caught and the consequences?

If somebody has been plundering H5 they deserve being 'shopped'.

Ron

A diver for 35 years

[weaponsinspector1970]

Hi Grant

H5 is the same as the Royal Oak, however for some reason divers seem to respect that wreck, or is it the fear of being caught and the consequences?

If somebody has been plundering H5 they deserve being 'shopped'.

Ron

A diver for 35 years

Having Dived H5, I can honestly say there is nothing worth removing from it. I have also dived HMS Vanguard and HMS Hampshire restricted wrecks. I have not removed anything from them. The only thing I remove are crabs, losters and scallops.

There are very few divers I know that would remove an artifact.

[Wrecktec]

Having Dived H5, I can honestly say there is nothing worth removing from it. I have also dived HMS Vanguard and HMS Hampshire restricted wrecks. I have not removed anything from them. The only thing I remove are crabs, losters and scallops.

There are very few divers I know that would remove an artifact.

Hi Weaponsinspector1970

The reason I said that is because someone has been offering an artefact from H5 for sale and giving divers a bad name, hence this long and ongoing discussion.

Cheers Ron

[grantowi]

H5 is the same as the Royal Oak, however for some reason divers seem to respect that wreck, or is it the fear of being caught and the consequences?

If somebody has been plundering H5 they deserve being 'shopped'.

I agree Ron, Divers should respect wrecks, not only "War Graves" but all wrecks and the majority of divers do.

But when a diver does remove an item from a wreck, every one tars divers with the same brush and demands that "war graves" shouldn't be dived at all, yet someone trundles over to France and spots something sticking out of the ground there is no hesitation to dig it up, clean it and show photos of your "find" on places like this forum - and nothing is said about it apart from advice on how to restore it.

I fail to see the justice or the logic behind the thinking

Grant

[grantowi]

The reason I said that is because someone has been offering an artefact from H5 for sale and giving divers a bad name, hence this long and ongoing discussion.

Would this discussion be taking place if someone was selling a SMLE wire cutter that they had picked up on a battle field and restored it to working condition, or a shell case, cleaned up and used as a pen holder (both items found for sale on the internet)?

Proberly not

Grant

[Wrecktec]

Possibly not, the main thing is to not tar all of the diving fraternity with the same brush and selling artefacts from a designated war grave does not help. Those that do it should face the consequences

Ron

[ph0ebus]

Possibly not, the main thing is to not tar all of the diving fraternity with the same brush and selling artefacts from a designated war grave does not help. Those that do it should face the consequences

Ron

Hi Ron,

You raise an important point. Archaeologists sometimes face this same issue; the bad diggers's actions taint the reputation of all. I would hope folks on this forum would take the extra moment to distinguish the skilled, responsible divers (which are the vast majority) from the few bad apples who engage in the actions like the one that led to this thread.

-Daniel

[Seadog]

Maybe the Storra should be dived, to find out if the ships manifest was correct. Or did she indeed have tank (parts) and aircraft?

Alan

In reference to post 63, below an extract from the record of the Storaa hearing held in the High Court 13th December 2005.

Complete record :

http://www.richardbuxton.co.uk/v3.0/?q=node/196

44. Referring to evidence obtained by recent dives by Dr Douglas McElvogue, he states that:

(1) an independent expert, having seen stills taken, confirms that the wheels “look to be of a standard American pattern … The tank track is definitely T41 or T51 pattern as used on the Sherman Tank and its derivatives”;

(2) photographs have been seen and identified by a Doctor as showing human remains.

(3) there can be no reasonable doubt, for the detailed reasons which he provides, that the vessel is the STORAA.

Statement from Dr Douglas McElvogue, 21st October 2005

[grantowi]

You raise an important point. Archaeologists sometimes face this same issue; the bad diggers's actions taint the reputation of all. I would hope folks on this forum would take the extra moment to distinguish the skilled, responsible divers (which are the vast majority) from the few bad apples who engage in the actions like the one that led to this thread.

I'm glad that people are coming around to the idea that not all divers are grave robbers. Which is a good thing as I have counted at least five forum members who were or are divers :-)

There is still the diffrence between a diver picking something up off a wreck site and some one picking some thing up from a battle site. Why is one considered a thief and the other one a collector ?

Grant

[Clio]

What is the attraction of diving a known war-grave ?

I ask not from moral posturing - arguably I am vicariously doing the same thing albeit from a study. I am genuinely interested in motivation. As Innes McCartney highlights, sports divers have made some very real contributions in this field and the overwhelming majority of maritime historians do not dive. Most of what we know about war time wrecks around the British coast comes from sports divers.

[grantowi]

What is the attraction of diving a known war-grave ?

What is the attraction of walking over a battlefield, sticking your head into a pillbox or exploring a trench system ?

Why do you keep seeing a diffrence between a navel ship that was sunk in war time (war grave), a merchant ship sunk in war time and a ship that was sunk in peace time ? All three ships may have had people on when they sank. Most diver treat ALL wrecks the same and that is with respect !

Have you ever seen a M class submarine, a Liberty ship or a Submarine tender complete with it's cargo of torpedos? I doubt it, but you might have seen photos that a diver had taken

Have you seen the damage that a mine makes in the hull of a merchant ship or the effects of depth charges on a submarine ? again you might have seen some photos, but nothing is the same as looking at and feeling the damaged plates. Or floating above the deck of a ship and feeling her last moments.

Grant

[bts1970]

Totally agree with Grants last comments.

To us we find the thought of "violation" as repulsive, but just becouse its "our" intrest does not make us the high & mighty on the full picture.

There are as many dodgy types field walking as there are diving, we spent a fortune recovering the Mary Rose but how many died on that vessel alone, "War Grave" or National Intrest ??. Thank god that we do pay due respects to those found on the battlefield, & protect vessels under the Sea. Some aspects may leave a bad taste in some peoples mouths but i many years to come when we are gone there may even be a prime time TV programme digging up the past, maybe they will call it Time team or something like that ???

Bob