Sopwith Dolphin

[Smithmaps]

Nick

No problem, but give me a day or so.

In answer to another post, yes there are Aero Jumbles, but rarely do you see anything WW1 Vintage.

In my experience, you are more likely to find WW1 aero parts at an autojumble, just from the quantity and variety, and the fact that many surplus aero instruments found there way onto cars after the war.

Guy

[Guest Nick C]

Nick

No problem, but give me a day or so.

In answer to another post, yes there are Aero Jumbles, but rarely do you see anything WW1 Vintage.

In my experience, you are more likely to find WW1 aero parts at an autojumble, just from the quantity and variety, and the fact that many surplus aero instruments found there way onto cars after the war.

Guy

Hi Guy,

It's been a while since the last post on this subject and just on the offchance you're still active on this forum I just thought I'd try again regarding your magnificent Dolphin parts.

I'm about to make the top shield for my Sopwith Snipe project which has a very similar top shield. If at all possible could you tell me if the opening for the machine guns are wire edged

or just folded over underneath. Also a closeup of the reinforcement for the Oil filler cap hole would be very useful.

Cheers, Nick

[Roger Coasby]

I was an Apprentice at De Havilland Propellor Company in the 1950's and they had a huge factory at Lostock near Bolton making aluminium bladed propellors. The technique then was not make a one off steel master of a blade for whatever aircraft engine combination it was designed for and then to replicate this exactly using profile milling machines where a wheel followed the profile and adjusted the height of the cutting wheel accordingly. I suspect this technique would also have been used on wooden propellers at some stage, as it was accurate, speedy and did not require so much skill to make.

bearing in mind the huge numbers of propellors required I am wondering if this may have started during WW1; profile wood cutting machines would have been around at that date.

Roger

[Guest Andy Simpson]

I thought I would post a couple of pictures of one of my possessions that falls into the 'Important' category.

Given to me about 30 years ago, by an old gentleman at my Father's sailing club, and cherished ever since. Thought to be from the 'other' airframe to the one that the RAF Museum at Cosford are rebuilding. There were two airframes at Betchworth Lime pits in Surrey. Both purchased from the aircraft clearing centre on Croydon Airport for £25, minus engines.

I believe that Hendon cleaned out Betchworth, and this is where the majority of the remains of their current build originated. I researched all this a long time ago.

Enjoy

Guy

Guy

I have just joined the forum to further various interests, including the Salonika campaign and researching various Great Uncles to fought/died/caught dysentry on the Western Front or served in the RN in one case. However, the day job prompts an interest in this one, as it involves researching individual histories of RAFM aircraft. The RAFM Dolphin indeed has an interesting history, but I was not aware of the Betchworth Lime Pits connection. Elucidation/correction of the attached most welcome - which of the collections of parts has the Betchworth connection?

INDIVIDUAL HISTORY

SOPWITH 5F.I DOLPHIN C3988

Incorporates rear fuselage 77/A/475

The Sopwith Dolphin single - seat fighting scout served operationally from Jan 1918 to July 1919; at its peak in Oct 1918 it equipped five RAF Squadrons, mainly in France and including a handful with No.141 Squadron on home defence duties. A total of 1,778 were built in Britain 1917-19, with possibly a few others in France; 1,055 remained on RAF charge at the end of Oct.1918. Production ended in August 1919 and the type was declared obsolete 1 Sep 1921.

67 The late Doug Bianchi of Personal Plane services at Booker advertised in ‘Exchange & Mart’ for old aircraft parts; one response offered him a collection of Sopwith Dolphin components.

Jun 67 This collection of Sopwith Dolphin components was purchased by the RAF Museum from Mr J.S.Liming of St.Leonards, East Sussex. These comprised nose, top, and under cowling; (two identified in 2006 as probable Bristol F.2b) main fuel tank; two radiators; header tank; gravity petrol tank, section of bulkhead, three wheels, one with half axle; two centre section struts, fin, two metal fittings, maker’s name plate and engine data plate and sundry struts. Accessioned as 68/A/409 A-N, March 1968.

These components originated with Hooper & Co Ltd, London SW.I built Dolphin D5329 from the serial batch D5201 - D5400 built to contract A.S.17566 dated 28 Jun 1917, serials allotted 19^th December 1917 and delivered between March 1918 and 10 May 1919. The late Jack Bruce suggested that D5329 was probably completed during the week ending 26 Oct 1918 and may have been delivered straight into store without ever having an engine fitted; this is supported by subsequent research which records no known history for this airframe.

68-70 Construction of Dolphin replica using the above components underway at RAF Henlow, although still recorded as a box of components in 1989.

73 Restoration work again underway

74 Restoration work suspended with the move of the Museum workshops from Henlow to Cardington.

c.Apr 77 Six foot length of rear fuselage framework purchased from Kent Arms Sales at Bexley. Accession number 77/A/475.This bore a data plate with the serial no. C3988 from the serial batch C3777 - C4276 ordered from the Sopwith Aviation Co Ltd at Kingston -on-Thames, Surrey on 29 June 1917 to contract A.S.17137, with serials allotted that same day, and delivered between Nov.1917 and 20 April 1918. This was the largest single order received by the Sopwith Company up to that time.

The late Jack Bruce suggested that C3988 was delivered week ending 26 January 1918, and may have served with a training unit, although the surviving maker's plate on C3988 carries the date 1919. Subsequent research indicates that it was tested at 7 AAP (Aircraft Acceptance Park) on 1^st February 1918, by Lt (later ACM) Leslie N. Hollinghurst who recorded the aircraft/flight in his logbook as ‘dud’.

97 Restoration underway at Cardington using the St.Leonards components, and the rear fuselage section serialled C3988, from which the identity of this reconstruction is taken.

An original set of horizontal tail surfaces including elevators (78/A/1262) was also incorporated into the restoration - this was donated by the Shuttleworth Trust, and was worked on during the year. The original top fabric cover for the main tailplane has the faint traces of stencilled serial number C4033 on it, this airframe being completed as a direct-drive Hispano Suiza powered Dolphin III with no recorded history. This was from serial number block C3777 – C4276: ordered as 500 Sopwith 5F1 Dolphin I built by the Sopwith Aviation Co Ltd to Contract AS17137 dated 29.6.17, with serials allotted that day. Order fulfilled 20.4.18.

Just to add to the pot, the original elevator covers acquired with the main tailplane are stencilled with yet another serial, D3725, a Dolphin I also with no recorded history, from serials batch D3576 – D3775 : 200 Sopwith 5F1 Dolphin I built by the Sopwith Aviation Co Ltd to Contract AS35977 dated 29.11.17, with serials already allotted 22.11.17. Order fulfilled 1.6.18.

Further work in 1997 included assembling and rigging the fuselage fame, which had new ash longerons machined and fitted.

Photos of completed fuselage frame, with John Chapman MBE, the Cardington Technician who oversaw this renewed phase of restoration - Aeroplane Monthly Mar 98 p.11; Windsock International Mar/Apr 1998 p.24.

Further photos of completed fuselage frame - Aeroplane Monthly Jun 98 p.8; Flypast Jul 98 p.15; The Flying M Yearbook 1998 p.28;

2000 Moved to temporary RAFM Restoration Facility at RAF Wyton, Cambs. Photos at this stage of restoration; Flypast February 2000 p.68; Flypast January 2001 p.26; Aeroplane February 2001 pp. 71-73. The rear fuselage incorporates original side frame members and two centre section struts are original but the rest of the wood structure is new build.

27 Nov 2001 By road to new RAFM restoration centre at RAF Cosford due to impending closure of RAFM facility at RAF Wyton. Photos at Cosford; WW1 Aero May 2003; Wrecks and Relics 19^th Edition; Aeroplane December 2010 p.8.

Restoration proceeding 2009, with completion expected summer 2010. Photos – Flypast July 2010 p.22; Wrecks and relics 22^nd Edition.

The project is likely to use an original 220 hp Hispano-Suiza engine (70/EF/337) No.100151 which was purchased as one of a pair from a private vendor in New York State, USA, in 1969 and shipped to the UK in 1970.

TEXT; ANDREW SIMPSON

Ó ROYAL AIR FORCE MUSEUM 2011.

With thanks

Andy Simpson

[nils d]

Very complicated Andy. So this plane will be what? 25% original ,and that 25% is a mongrel mix.

i believe this raises the question of what finish to put on the Dolphin ,as theres too many serials to choose from and none of them have an interesting history.

l propose it is finished in the markings of Lt L N Hollinghurst who was a Dolphin ace and at least had a small association with a bit of the airframe.

Not an idea to satisfy the purists but they cant come up with anything better as the various bits dont even match each other. i e later production airframes

changed from the early ones so that cowling is "wrong" with that tail section, cable layout changed and so on.

lts still going to look good to most people and well worth the cost of an advert in exchange and mart.

[Guest CIRCUS 5]

Very complicated Andy. So this plane will be what? 25% original ,and that 25% is a mongrel mix.

i believe this raises the question of what finish to put on the Dolphin ,as theres too many serials to choose from and none of them have an interesting history.

l propose it is finished in the markings of Lt L N Hollinghurst who was a Dolphin ace and at least had a small association with a bit of the airframe.

Not an idea to satisfy the purists but they cant come up with anything better as the various bits dont even match each other. i e later production airframes

changed from the early ones so that cowling is "wrong" with that tail section, cable layout changed and so on.

lts still going to look good to most people and well worth the cost of an advert in exchange and mart.

This week, 14th-19 March 2011, is RAF Museum Cosford's Conservation Centre Open Week.

It's free to attend, so go along and put your point of view and expert opinion directly to the people involved in constructing this replica.

I'm sure that you will be made to feel most welcome.

[Smithmaps]

I started this thread, and apologise for having missed some of the answers.
However, I was lucky enough to be invited to the unveiling of the completed Dolphin at Hendon on Friday, and it looks superb.

We all love a good mystery, and for the record, I thought I would re state, the events that lead to the acquisition of my cowlings, and their possible connection with the Hendon components.

As a teenager I was given two Dolphin cowlings in Post #1, on 10th Jan 1981, by a gentleman from the Hampton Court Model Yacht club. His name was Lionel Rouse, and lived on the A3 south of Guildford.

His story was that he and his friend (John Lings) had lived near Betchworth Lime Works, and as boys, the site had been their playground. By means fair or foul, they had each acquired pieces of an aeroplane, which had been stored in the loft of a building at Betchworth lime works in Surrey. Lionel had the cowlings, which now as a 70 year old man, he gave me, and his friend John had had the undercarriage.

I was an active aviation enthusiast, and the prospect of a stored complete airframe excited me. I visited Lionel's friend, John Lings, who lived in Godalming. I was too late for the undercarriage, as he stated that he had donated it to Duxford, a few years earlier, but he gave me an oil pressure gauge from the same aircraft.

He did, however, back up Lionel's story exactly, so next step was to find the building, and the loft. I am Surrey based, so not a problem. I found the building , ( EDIT: The loft of the Quarry workshops). which was exactly where both men had described, and consisted of an open barn, with an upper roof space, and one could see through the floor as you walked, through slatted boards.

Sadly all trace of the aircraft had gone, but I was 100% sure i was in the right place. I was used to knocking on doors, in aircraft crash research, so I then knocked on a few in the local area. Several people knew all about the aircraft, and also confirmed that the RAF Museum had been and taken away the remains.
Now this is not in RAFM records with regard to the Dolphin parts they have.

I was not completely beaten, and I had one more avenue to pursue. I had been given the contact details of the son of the owners of the Lime Works, a Mr Taylorson, and off I went to see him in Redhill, in Surrey.

A pleasant man, and over a cup of tea, he recounted the story, that his father had purchased two aircraft from the Aircraft Disposal works at Waddon, on the old Croydon Airport, after the 1WW, and he used to play on them as a child. He confirmed that one was stored in the loft (now empty) and the other had been kept in the basement galleries of the main kiln chimney. He said that there were two airframes, bought for £25 each, but with no engines, as they were another £25 to buy. he then produced a WW1 cockpit clock from a back room, which was off one of them. (he kept that) He had little knowledge of the fate of either aircraft though, as the Works had changed hands.

I tried to gain access to the Kiln area, but was unsuccessful, and looking at its general state, I felt it unlikely that much would have survived anyway.

It is indeed a mystery, that the RAFM have no record of the connection, but I can only state truly and honestly the facts as I experienced them.

I wonder, if the gentleman named mr J. S. Liming, of St Leonards,(interesting name co incidence) who sold the original parts to the RAFM, had some connection to the Betchworth establishment? and indeed the RAFM, may well have collected them from storage at Betchworth? However, the exact location would probably not have made the RAFM records? Maybe Mr Liming bought them from Betchworth? Maybe he worked there? We may never know.

This is the only explanation I can come up with. But it all fits, as the RAFM have the same cowlings as mine, neither of which ever appear to have been fitted to an aircraft (mounting holes missing) and it all figures with there being two airframes, and therefore two sets of cowlings surviving.

I wonder if anybody reading this knows something about Mr Liming?

EDIT: Could the name recorded by the RAFM me miss recorded be a company, not an individual? J S Liming, St Leonards, Sussex? I have yet to find such a company, but it would solve the mystery.

Congratulations to the team at Cosford, who have worked tirelessly to complete this aircraft. My cowlings were offered to Hendon 20 years ago for the rebuild, but it transpired that they already had some.
Guy

[Cnock]

Hi Guy,

thanks for showing, yes we enjoy.

Cnock

[Smithmaps]

Having started this thread about the RAFM Dolphin and my cowlings. I have subsequently found this picture.

I am pretty convinced it is a Dolphin being towed away from the Waddon ADC, and feel it is pretty likely that it could be one of the two taken to Betchworth minus engines.

Oh how I wish I could read the serial! But as the RAFM one is C3988, and contains parts from one of the Betchworth airframes, it could actually be this aircraft the serial is on the rear fuselage, and chalked onto the front cowling.

It appears to have stopped by the side of the road due to a flat tyre.

 

 

 

[nils d]

Superb photograph

Bravo!