R/15490 Pte Walter Plumb

[madmazda86]

Hello, I am hoping an enlightened person here may be able to help me out. My great grandfather, Walter Plumb, served with the KRRC during WWI, and I am trying to find out (on my mother's behalf) which battalion he was in. He had a British War Medal and a Victory medal (and a Silver War Badge, I now know, thanks to you guys!). He later went on to serve with the Hertfordshire Regiment in WWII. He doesn't appear to have a service record available on search, in any of the links provided by the Long Long Trail. However, I've found his WWI medal card on the National Archive Index:

Medal card of Plumb, Walter

Corps: King's Royal Rifle Corps Depot

Regiment No: R/15490

Rank: Private

Date: 1914-1920

The only other clues we have are that he was wounded c21/04/1917, and a cross amulet made from the nosecap of a German shell. Engraved into it is his name, 'Arras 1915' and another word we can't make out but is something along the lines of "Heri?'s". However, my Great Grandmother, who mounted it on an old postcard, has inscribed "Made from nose cap of German shell, Easter Monday 1916. At Arras."

So I've got two possible years here to make things complicated. Trawling around on here and on the internet, it looks like the 14th Division, which contained the 7th, 8th and 9th battalions of the KRRC, were in the Arras area on that date. Are there any other KRRC battalions that could fit in with this date, in 1915 or 1916?

Any assistance is very much appreciated. Thankyou!

[archangel9]

He also got a Silver War Badge - List M/985.

Enlisted 13/9/1915 and discharged 3/5/1918.

So "Easter Monday 1916" looks correct.

John

Edit

Apologies - Welcome

[archangel9]

The Silver War Badge card -

[madmazda86]

Wow, thankyou very much for the fast reply and the scan of his medal card - my Mum is thrilled! I've attached a scan of the cross amulet for anyone interested. Quite amazing how one can create such intricate things on a battlefield.

Okay, so if the date is about right, then that helps narrow it down a little. Thanks again!

[stiletto_33853]

Issued Silver War Badge number 391542, discharged due to wounds and was a few days short of 30 years old when discharged.

Andy

[madmazda86]

Fantastic, thankyou! So the 'Depot' part - does that mean I'm unlikely to find any record of which Battalion he was posted to?

[stiletto_33853]

M,

You would need someone to look in the medal rolls at the Archives to see the battalion. 14th Division though, handed over to the 50th Division on the 13th April and went into rest until the 24th April.

Andy

[madmazda86]

Right, thanks for the tip. I'll be in London at the end of May so I'll see if I can visit the archives then and find out!

[nthornton1979]

He had a Military Medal

If he was awarded the Military Medal then a search in the London Gazzette should produce an entry confirming the award. This usually gives the Name,Regiment and Battalion of the recipient.

I am absolutley hopeless at searching the Gazzette but purhaps another member can check ?

Unless of course you mean the British War Medal and not a Military Medal which was a gallantry medal ?

Neil

[madmazda86]

Unless of course you mean the British War Medal and not a Military Medal which was a gallantry medal ?

Neil

My apologies, it was a British War Medal - I got the names mixed up. Sorry!

[archangel9]

At Kew search for his service records in series -

WO 363/P 277 Plumb Roland F - Plumber William

Ancestry has service records on line but only as far as surnames beginning with "N". So you might get lucky at Kew!! Although 60 - 70 % of the records were destroyed in 1940.

John

[MBrockway]

My apologies, it was a British War Medal - I got the names mixed up. Sorry!

And I just spent the last 45 mins scouring the KRRC Chronicles MM lists and the LG!!!

You made an innocent mistake so no harm done! Welcome to the Forum

Cheers,

Mark

I've attached a scan of the cross amulet for anyone interested. Quite amazing how one can create such intricate things on a battlefield.

MPiano,

You'll realise this is in the shape of the KRRC regimental Emblem?

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

He had a British War Medal and a Victory medal (and a Silver War Badge, I now know, thanks to you guys!)

MPiano,

Do you have his actual medals?

If so, could you check their exact inscriptions (round the rim and on the back) and post them here for us? Sorry to put you to some trouble!

Also what is your source for his being wounded on 21 Apr 1917? That could give us a lead in too.

Do you have any photos of Walter?

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

M,

You would need someone to look in the medal rolls for at the Archives to see the battalion. 14th Division though, handed over to the 50th Division on the 13th April and went into rest until the 24th April.

Andy

I'm afraid Andy's right

Since Walter enlisted in Sep 1915, he missed joining the early New Army battalions at formation.

Also since he was not awarded the 1914-15 Star, we can conclude he did not arrive in France & Flanders until 1916.

Since he was at the front in April 1916, we can rule out 18/KRRC (Arts & Crafts) 20/KRRC, (BEL Pioneers) and 21/KRRC (Yeoman Rifles) as they did not arrive until May 1916.

17/KRRC (British Empire League) went out in March 1916, so must be a good candidate.

It's also possible that he could have been sent out as a replacement for any of the battalions already in France (that's 16/KRRC and below, except 3/KRRC and 4/KRRC who went to Salonika in Nov 1915).

The R prefixed Service Number was mostly (but not exclusively) used by 7th-13th (Service) battalions, with 16th battalion onwards mostly (but again not exclusively) using the C prefix.

On the strength of that, and the fact that they were heavily in action on the Scarpe during the Arras Offensive right through to late April 1917, my money's actually on 13/KRRC (111th Brigade, 37th Division), but the only way to be sure is from the British War and Victory Medal Roll as Andy has already said.

HTH!

Cheers,

Mark

.

[madmazda86]

And I just spent the last 45 mins scouring the KRRC Chronicles MM lists and the LG!!!

Eep! I'm really sorry for wasting your time with my error - I've spent all day looking these things up and they've all gotten a bit mushed together in my head. I'm very grateful to you and everyone else who has replied for taking the time to look in your records!

You'll realise this is in the shape of the KRRC regimental Emblem?

Gosh, I never even joined the two together in my head! You're absolutely right - we've got his KRRC cap badge somewhere.

Here's a picture of the backs of his medals -

http://i43.tinypic.com/11sp18w.jpg

(I'm having to link externally as I've quite a few pictures here and perhaps they might be helpful for other people too.)

The rims say:

British War Medal: R-15490 Pte . W . Plumb . K . R . Rif . C .

And the Victory Medal is printed exactly the same.

As for when he was wounded, here is a letter from a nurse (http://i39.tinypic.com/212tgyp.jpg), dated 21/4/1917, saying he was admitted to The Lady Forester Hospital in Broseley, Shropshire, the day before. So presumably he was wounded sometime around then, it probably would've taken a while to transfer him there and we don't know where he was wounded.

It looks like it took him a long time to recover, as here are some pictures of him in 1918 at the Cheswardine convalescent home:

http://i43.tinypic.com/2iku0c3.jpg

and what my Mum thinks is Baschurch convalescent home, but might also be Cheswardine

http://i42.tinypic.com/j6uell.jpg

However, it's possible that he'd been wounded once before then, as here is a photo of him at a convalescent home in Nottingham in 1916 (he's the fellow with the head bandage, marked with a blue cross)

http://i43.tinypic.com/1in3w0.jpg

Hope those are useful!

[MBrockway]

Eep! I'm really sorry for wasting your time with my error - I've spent all day looking these things up and they've all gotten a bit mushed together in my head.

No worries - if he had had the MM, he would most likely have been listed in the Battalion War Records in one of the annual KRRC Chronicles, as well as the London Gazette, so we were all racing to find that "quick hit"!!!

More importantly it's great news that you have his medals - great that the family still has them, but also it makes the Service Number 100% certain - we learn from hard experience here that it really pays to go right back to the actual source

As for when he was wounded, here is a letter from a nurse (http://i39.tinypic.com/212tgyp.jpg), dated 21/4/1917, saying he was admitted to The Lady Forester Hospital in Broseley, Shropshire, the day before. So presumably he was wounded sometime around then, it probably would've taken a while to transfer him there and we don't know where he was wounded.

It looks like it took him a long time to recover, as here are some pictures of him in 1918 at the Cheswardine convalescent home:

http://i43.tinypic.com/2iku0c3.jpg

and what my Mum thinks is Baschurch convalescent home, but might also be Cheswardine

http://i42.tinypic.com/j6uell.jpg

However, it's possible that he'd been wounded once before then, as here is a photo of him at a convalescent home in Nottingham in 1916 (he's the fellow with the head bandage, marked with a blue cross)

http://i43.tinypic.com/1in3w0.jpg

Hope those are useful!

Very useful! Also great pictures - you are VERY lucky! Got any of Walter in Service Dress? There may be insignia visible that allow us to identify his Division or better.

The letter from the nurse at Broseley moves his wounding at least a week earlier than 21 April 1917 I'd say. It seems unlikely that evacuation to Shropshire would take less than a week.

That probably brings 7th-9th battalions in 14th (Light) Division back into the picture. Of course, it's also perfectly possible that he was wounded in normal everyday trench routine, not a major assault, and then all the battalions are back in play except the two in the Balkans.

Unless there's some giveaway clue on one of your other photos, we'll have to wait until the Medal Roll tells us his battalion.

Welcome to the rifles family here on the Forum by the way MPiano!

Cheers,

Mark

[madmazda86]

Yeah, we feel very lucky - my great grandmother was a terrible hoarder and held onto all these things! And as my grandfather served in Burma during WWII he held onto everything in turn. Though unfortunately his Silver War Badge appears to be missing - I don't think it's lost, though, just mislaid, as my Mum thinks she's seen it before. Equally we're both convinced there is a big photo of him somewhere in his dress uniform but we can't seem to find it! We do have a very small one but I don't think it'll yield much information, though I'll get her to scan it in and send it to me (I'm back up north now).

Thankyou very much again for all your help - thanks to everyone who's posted, I now have all these extra bits of information and know what I need to ask for when I go to Kew in May. You've all been very kind. I'll keep you all updated!