ianw Posted 1 November , 2002 Share Posted 1 November , 2002 Of course , I had forgotten the significance of PC in the other context. Hells Bells , we nearly got this forum shut down as well ! Don't worry. This Committee of one has today decided to keep it open! Chris But seriously , I agree with Aurel that there was over reaction about the Menin Gate event but perhaps you can understand this better if you imagine that there was a site sacred to Belgium in the South of England that you held dear to you and saw it subject to a threat (either real or imagined). I am sure all of us look forward greatly to seeing the poppy field and enjoying our future visits to Ypres - where I have always felt welcomed and most at home. I suppose we look forward to our relatively infrequent pilgrimages to Ypres and always expect it , perhaps unrealistically ,to be the same and unchanging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jbd Posted 2 November , 2002 Share Posted 2 November , 2002 Barrie unfortunately expresses himself rather intemperately on too many occasions but I do not believe he would do other than welcome peace in the world . You are quite right Ian. I welcome peace in the world. I do not however think that it can be bought at any price. Sadly the use of force is sometimes neccesary to preserve a wider peace. Yes, I am sometimes OTT in the use of words. Often deliberately so. I do leave mixed messages, again often deliberately so. Yes I do provoke and this is invariably deliberate. I think the odd string would turn into a mutual admiration society if someone did not put an opposing point of view. I never get into arguments, only discussions. Those are some of my faults, there are many more. HOWEVER( AND THIS IS SHOUTING) I AM NOT AND NEVER HAVE BEEN GUILTY OF HYPOCRISY. THIS IS QUITE UNLIKE ONE CONTRIBUTOR TO THIS STRING WHO I SUGGEST TO YOU IS GUILTY OF THE MOST BREATHTAKING HYPOCRISY.! Perhaps I could sign off by reminding him "people in glasshouses etc" Barrie Dobson (Who will be in Ieper next week spending his own money just as thousands of other tourists will.) I am paying for my right to make mild criticism of the area! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 2 November , 2002 Share Posted 2 November , 2002 I'm going to stick my head above the parapet and risk drawing fire, but here goes. I am relatively new to the 'ins & outs' of WWI, up to now I've been content to stick with collecting medals to casualties and looking at what the recipient's unit was doing when he was killed; I had never looked at Haig and his leadership or even considered the SAD cases. Recently I realised that I needed to know more, much more than I had already learnt and with this in mind I joined in on the old WFA Forum (& when that closed I joined Chris' superb Forum). I found that there were people ready to share their vast knowledge with me and I was directed to reading material etc that would help me in my studies, I was impressed. I agree that the debates on things, such as Haig, are needed. As a person who is 'in the middle' it is great for me to hear both sides of the argument, read up on books suggested to me and then come to my own conclusion. But what I have found is that these debates start becoming like a war, one side attacking and then the opponent counter-attacking. Unfortunately this doesn't help the likes of me in making up my mind, it actually makes me shy away from the subject (until now) in fear of being bombarded by the 'morning hate'. I'm not a great literary person, I was never really good at school and in arguments I always think of a 'killing' remark a week later! Can't we agree that we all have our own views and accept that others have theirs? Then we can debate, judiciously, topics without reverting to attacks on each other or 'he said this' and 'he said that' types of arguments? I may have got this whole thing wrong, I'm pretty good at doing that, and I apologise in advance if I have. I'm going to sit in my 'Funk Hole' now and await the bombardment! Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jbd Posted 2 November , 2002 Share Posted 2 November , 2002 (snip)But what I have found is that these debates start becoming like a war, one side attacking and then the opponent counter-attacking.(snip) I thought Lee's comments were superb and really well put. As a peace loving individual myself I too wonder about the battle mentality of a number of contributors. Perhaps it is the nature of the subject we are discussing! Barrie Dobson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jbd Posted 2 November , 2002 Share Posted 2 November , 2002 It does no-ones case any good, nor does it give outsiders a good impression of those interested in WW1 There is certainly some truth in this statement. I have to admit that it requires quite a remakable intellect to draw conclusions on behalf of the wide world out there who stumble on Great War forums and websites. I think the outsider will be least impressed and most confused by the messages that appear under the "Shot at Dawn" heading( abbreviated to SAD). They may or may not agree with the sentiment but if the press (both national and local) is anything to go by, they largely do support those who campaign for some degree of pardon. They would find most messages in that string are well written, sympathetic and resound with the call for justice. They will find the odd Ghengis Khan literary contribution (hang 'em, flog 'em) They will find the odd "you can't rewrite history" piece (from the same people who try to rewrite the history of the Somme and Passchendaele in other strings) If they look hard enough they will find an astonishing comtribution from someone who interviewed a few veterans, claims that they did not mention the SAD aspect during recollections of their service (were they actually asked?) and therefore concludes that the call for pardons cannot be justified. More recently they will find on the thread a synopsis of a taped interview with a veteran (which was also read by over a million people on the 30 October) which directly contradicts that point of view. Now it possibly confuses the outsider and perhaps gives a poor impression to them when they see apparently knowledgeable individuals disagreeing amongst themselves. Or does it? If comments I have received in e-mail and personally are anything to go by, they are heartily sick of the bubble with which the "professional" historians, self appointed guardians of military history, tend to surround themselves. They are quite delighted to see it punctured from time to time by the "amateurs" It is a long time since history was the preserve of a few. It is open to all. We ignore that at our peril Barrie Dobson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jbd Posted 2 November , 2002 Share Posted 2 November , 2002 Since making the above posting I have received a personal message from Paul. I do not intend to repeat it or quote from it. I think that there is little doubt that I have both misunderstood Paul and upset him. This is not acceptable on this forum, not to Paul, Chris or any of you. All I can say in my own defence is that I do sometimes get carried away and I really do have a peculiar sense of humour. The time has come to say "pax". I do that and unreservedly apologise to Paul and anyone else that I may have upset in this thread. I do genuinely like Ypres and its people. I would not visit so often if I did not like it. All I ask please (yes-please) is that when I am there you do not bathe it in pink light. Barrie Dobson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 2 November , 2002 Share Posted 2 November , 2002 Pax it is then, sergeant major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Taylor Posted 2 November , 2002 Share Posted 2 November , 2002 Pax for me too. I like Irish jokes but we tell them best! Jimmy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 2 November , 2002 Author Share Posted 2 November , 2002 Barrie, I would consider it as a great pleasure to meet up with you next week at the Ceremony. I will be easy to recognise as I will be waring my badge as official of the Last Post Association. Even easier: I am the smartest looking lad you will see . Seriously I am looking forward to meet you. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 2 November , 2002 Share Posted 2 November , 2002 Make it Wednesday or Saturday and I'll say Hello too, Barrie. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 3 November , 2002 Share Posted 3 November , 2002 On the subject of 'peace' towns, Ypres is not the only town to use that word. Verdun also calls itself the 'World Peace Centre' and the Mairie and Tourist Office work hard to attract visitors for anything but the battlefield. Any yet, if you took the battle out of Verdun, no one would visit it at all. Why can a town that forms the backdrop to one of the great battles of the world not accept that military tourism is an acceptable thing in it's own right and for it's own sake? I don't understand all this emphasis on 'peace'. We all believe that peace is better than war. Does the insistence on 'peace' camouflage a refusal to face the horrors of war or even - dare I say it - the fact that there was right and wrong on both sides? Christina Holstein. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 3 November , 2002 Share Posted 3 November , 2002 christina, i am very thankful you made the point! i am 100% with you. there are some few other examples out in this world where city/town/county officials see it more realistic and take their local history as is , without hiding behind synonyms and "instructing" on peace matters : normandy beach related towns i.e.; st. mere eglise, arromanches; anzio(it) (allWWII) or departement de vosges for all the famous WWI szenes of action; in flanders maybe gheluvelt or (limited) zonnebeke county. it is my believe that visiting the battlefield war grave cemetaries of all nations are the most valued and convincing peace "messengers" . i don`t need subtile indoctrination by third parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 4 November , 2002 Share Posted 4 November , 2002 Very interesting comments by Christina on efforts by Verdun to build up its non-Great War tourism . Of course there is nothing wrong with this unless it presages a tendency to make WW1 tourists a second class citizen shunted of into the background. Of course , without the Great War , would Verdun , Ypres , Albert etc be likely places for you to spend your summer hols ? Even if vast amounts of Eurocash are expended to create alternative "attractions", I think we all know the answer to that one. I still feel that vestiges of the Great War ,which graphically testify to a time when Europe first faced Germany in a life or death struggle , are much too "red in tooth and claw" for the current political climate. There is much comfort to be obtained by painting all those involved from King/Emperor down to trench rat as hapless victims of an anonymous cataclysmic misfortune rather like an earthquake or flood and cover up all the inconvenient "sharp edges" with a blanket of "Peace". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jbd Posted 4 November , 2002 Share Posted 4 November , 2002 Christina, Why is it that I am not able to make my points as eloquently as you? Has it to do with gender or beauty (You have a double advantage over me) or do I simply have to accept that you are better at semantics? When is that book of yours to be published? Pen & Sword still do not show it as being available. I would love to meet you all at Ypres but I will be off back home as soon as the memorial service is over. Before it? The scrum makes it impossible. July 1 at Lochnagar is the time to meet up.. This assumes that the rain does not come down as it did this year when all that could be seen was multi colured rainwear and not a face in sight. Barrie Dobson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 4 November , 2002 Share Posted 4 November , 2002 Barrie Did I make my points as eloquently as all that? Thank you. My book is out now - my complimentary copies arrived this morning so it should be in the shops within a day or two. I can't speak for Ypres but with regard to Verdun I have the feeling that if the authorities could limit people's interest in the battle to some sort of standard half day tour organised by the tourist office, that would ease their minds. There's somehow a discomfort with the awful magnitude of the battle that means it has to be cut down or contained in some way. I'm sure that one day in the not too distant future, officialdom will try to limit our present 'freedom to roam' and I hope that there will be enough independent-minded historians around to protest. What I really don't understand is why the city of Verdun can't see that - to put it at its very lowest - the battle represents a potential source of income. The Verdun battlefield, abandoned as it has been, is unique in the world and could be used as the most wonderful educational tool if proper thought was applied to how to do it. By the way, Ian. Europe didn't face Germany in a life or death struggle - Germany is part of Europe! There is a growing view over here in mainland Europe that WWI was the first European civil war. It is commemorated as such in Mondement, Marne, on the first Sunday in September each year on the anniversary of Marne I. That might be hard for some to swallow. Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 4 November , 2002 Share Posted 4 November , 2002 The first European civil war? Try telling that to the Kaiser! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 4 November , 2002 Share Posted 4 November , 2002 I said some would find it hard to swallow! The Kaiser wouldn't be the only one. Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 4 November , 2002 Share Posted 4 November , 2002 I suspect the centre of this debate is whether you regard Europe as a 'country' or 'state'. Knowing this forum, I'm heading for my dugout as we speak... Simon civil war n. A war between factions or regions of the same country. A state of hostility or conflict between elements within an organization: “The broadcaster is in the midst of a civil war that has brought it to the brink of a complete management overhaul” (Bill Powell). Civil War The war in the United States between the Union and the Confederacy from 1861 to 1865. Also called War Between the States. Civil War The war in England (and Ireland / Scotland / Wales - SHF) between the Parliamentarians and the Royalists from 1642 to 1648. Apologies for the Anglo-centric definitions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 4 November , 2002 Share Posted 4 November , 2002 yes Christina , a freudian slip of mine but probably I was subconsciously suggesting that by its actions in the two world wars Germany opted out of Europe during those 10 years into a place that no one wants to visit again. European Civil War - that really is a travesty of historical actuality but not surprising . I wonder what other Orwellian revisionism (for Barrie!) , we can look forward to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jbd Posted 4 November , 2002 Share Posted 4 November , 2002 European Civil War - that really is a travesty of historical actuality but not surprising . I wonder what other Orwellian revisionism (for Barrie!) , we can look forward to. I am staying out of this one! I have been accused of "mincing" people. I have been accused of being "nice." And this is all on the one forum! I am reminded of the American youth (on a different forum I must add) who at the time of the problem potential new airport on the Somme, asked quite genuinely, what relevance was the Somme to WWI and was it anywhere near Chateau Thierry? His next posting brought the classic comment that he was unaware that there had been a Civil War anywher except in the USA. Typical do I hear you say? Well perhaps so, the problem is that this guy is an honour student!!! Barrie Dobson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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