Zeppelin Crew Sizes

[Southside Bucky]

Here's a list of German airships destroyed by aircraft, with crew numbers and date destroyed:

SL11.....16...3/9/16

LZ37.......9...7/6/15

LZ61.....17...28/11/16

LZ64.....21...14/5/17

LZ66.....21...21/8/17

LZ72.....19...2/10/16

LZ74.....22...24/9/16

LZ78.....20...28/11/16

LZ92.....24...14/6/17

LZ95.....17...17/6/17

LZ100...19...11/8/18

LZ112...22...5/8/18

Source: 'Zeppelin!' By Ray Rimell.

Hope that helps.

Bucky

P.S.

There were four more airships destroyed while sitting on the ground with no crew on board. These were: LZ25, LZ38, LZ99 and LZ108.

[Jempie]

Hi!

Sorry to all, especial Phil!

But even Ernst Lehmann in his book "Auf Luftpatrouille and Weltfahrt" states the number of 9 crew I gave up! That there was only one survival , the Steuerman Mühler!

Victims 8 !

Further the two Oblt's and the other 6 of the crew where buried originally at Gent-Westerbegraafplaats! I got even an extract from the WWI register of this graveyard , mentioning all 8 were originally buried there...Just under a gravememorial the two Oblt's remains stayed buried seen it was the family from Oblt. Kurt Ackermann financed it privatly ! The rest of the crew, apart from the man who was transported to Bonn (A lieutenant, not civil!) the other 5 were rebruried by the VDK at Vladslo!

I have photos from the grave memorial at the Gent-Westerbegraafplaats, from the stones at Vladslo!

The oprhans con;ent, indeed one sister was killed and two orphans (children !) too! The civil victims were thus not 1 but 3 !

Notice in Belgium (& The Netherlands) we have a website on WWI, www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.nl (or .be) on which a thread excist onGontrode Zeppelinshed, and I know so much Belgian (author of a book on the airfieldshistory of airfields around Gent!) and German (like Harry Redner or Luftschiffharry, John Provan -Germany Philippe Nicodème-Maubeuge-France) historians who could tell you that that 28 crew is a big mistake!

LZ 39 that night was attacked, but could escape and LZ 38 was that night or day bombed in her shed at Brussels-Evere, did burn...

These three zeppelins (LZ 37-38 & 39) were shedded normally into the zeppelinsheds of Brussel-Evere, Berchem St Agahta (Brussels) and Etterbeek (Brussels)!

As result of this the LZ 39 and ZXII (Maubeuge-France)were posted on the Eastern front!

As result of this the French airship shed from Maubeuge (France) and the Belgian sheds of Gontrode and the 3 Brussels sheds weren't used anymore WWI for shedding the zeppelins, were just rebuild as "Notbelegungshallen"! (In case or emergency they could be used eventually in urgence by zeppelins further!)

only the 3 sheds of Namur-Cognelee (Belgiuml) were further used !

It came upon this in fact , the zeppelins came to Namur to be refuelled and eventually armed from another further away shed in Germany, stopped at Namur, waiting there on good weathercircumstancies to make raids on England! There was nearly always one shed at Namur under reconstruction (originally tentsheds and 180 m long at the end of WWI there were two sheds in function one 200 m long and one 220 m long, the third was still under reconstruction by the armistice and 1 was for the Army , the second for the Navy!

All three have a Navy "nickname" and an Army "nickname"! because they were all three used in periods by the Army and Navy during WWI!

LZ 37 came back from a night raid on Calais that night when it was attacked by Warneford...!

(Cfr Book Georg Paul Neumann, Die Deutshche Lûftstreitkräfte im Ersten Weltkrieges, 1922)

i know some sources mentions 28 (even on Internet!) , but where they got that from ???

It's not bnecause some author wrote at the time this nonsens , its correct!

Others take than these wrong figures over too!

Volume of LZ 37 was 22.000 m³ (old type! And crew WWI = 9!) , LZ 38 : 32.000M³!(was a bigger new type)

mvr

Jempie

[Southside Bucky]

Thanks for that, Jempie. Good info.

Interesting that the books; 'The Air Defence of Britain 14-18' AND 'Zeppelin!' both quote a crew of ten, rather than nine for LZ37 though.

They were both published in 1984, so the authors couldn't have been using each other's books during their respective research. So I wonder how/why they both arrive at a crew of ten?

Even curiouser, Here's a photo of LZ37's crew:

http://flickcabin.com/public/view/full/28056

Yeah, there's only eight of em!...Maybe the other one took the photo, eh?

Regards.

Bucky

EDIT: 17/4/09. 18:55.

Just checked 'Airfields & Airmen of the Channel Coast' by Mike O'Connor, published in 2005. He has the LZ37 crew at nine.

I've also amended the 'Airships Destroyed' list in post No.26.

[phil@basildon]

While I am happy to concede that there may not have been 28 men on board LZ37, 9 is an impossibly small number to operate a military Zeppelin effectively. Warneford in his report spoke of his difficulty in approaching the LZ37 because of machine gun fire, LZ37 was equipped with four machine guns each requiring a gunner and loader. That makes nine if you include the helmsman who survived. What about the Commanding officer, navigating officer and radio operator and other crewmen tasked with operating the vessel? The Zeppelins carried at least two officers and quite often more as well as the other ranks.

Even the later Zeppelins that were stripped of all excess weight including armament in a desperate attempt to climb higher than defending aircraft carried a crew of at least twelve men.

It is also a possibility that the Germans kept the true death toll secret in view of the fact that people from the Zeppelin factory were involved?

The photograph proves nothing, they all appear to be OR's and there is nothing to say that it is the entire crew.

[Southside Bucky]

Yeah, I kinda see where you're coming from, Phil. Nine men does seem an unfeasibly small number of hands to operate such a massive ship. I'm certainly not arguing for or against...Maybe the Germans did perpetrate a cover-up?

There's a passage in Ray Rimell's 'Zeppelin!' (page 69), regarding LZ37's destruction, that states:

"...The German police, who had arrived so promptly on the scene after the crash, closed off all surrounding streets and ordered civilians to remain in their houses. One of the nuns tried to take a snapshot of the wreckage but a guard took her camera, only to return it later without the film. Over the following fortnight the scorched remains of LZ37 were carted away on wagons and scrapped."

An intriguing mystery, that's for sure.

Bucky

[phil@basildon]

I do have a very reliable source in "Zeppelin Adventure" by Rolf Marben published in 1932. Marben served on the Naval Zeppelins and if he speaks of any crew numbers he mentions 15 to 20 crew members.

The LZ37 however was an army airship so there is no reference to it in Marbens book.

[Jempie]

S. Bucky !

It's indeed so I know that photo too!

this photo gives proof for for more what I know about the crew of 9!

WFurther is it so that during WWI, the Germans confiscated all camera's in civil possession..;there was an order that all civilians had to hanover their private camera's to the Germans during WWI in Belgium! These announcements weer placed on several places into the cities and villages by means of wallpapers against houses and such!

I know from other crashed zeppelins in Belgium when people dared to take photographs they got arrested and confiscated their camera's!

thta's why its so difficult to find photos about the downed zeppelins overhere in belgium..;

But there were photos taken from for more this LZ 37 ! I have seen them!

But there is another thing!

The Germans buried their wartime fallen soldiers ordently! I have a booklet from the Marinekorps Flandern released 1917, and one thing which falls up is that there are lots of WWI German warcemeteries in it..a fallen German soldier was a "HERO"! They had such cultus!

I can assure you thee were from LZ 37 only 8 crew killed...and 1 survival only! = a crew of 9 !!!

There was a very attended hounour burial ceremonial when the crew was butied, adn why the germans shoiuld have hided how many victims there were ?

The Belgian graveyard register from 1915 says 8 LZ 35 crew buried...it doesn't lie! (from which one was later transported to Bonn...it was all registered...

But I can't tell you why all those other sources mentions 10 or even 28 ?

Sorry!

Even the Grman VDK can only tell you 5 of the crew are now buried at Vladslo (West-Falnders, but can't tell you where the other 3 are buried today!

You won't find on their site tha names of the two Oberleutnants (van der haegen or von der haeghen, aand Kurt Ackerman...and Mühler which is buried at Bonn!

they have only those registered which are buried officially onto their own sites (Friedhofen!) alike Menin, Vladslo, Hooglede, etc...

Civil burials or graves from WWI fallen German military isn't of their concern!

thta's the proble!

vbr

Jempie

[Southside Bucky]

Hi Jempie.

I don't doubt that what you say is correct, but when you state; "...this photo gives proof for for more what I know about the crew of 9!...", I find it a little confusing.

There are only eight men in that photo, so may I ask; how is it proof of a crew of nine?

I realise English is not your first language, so maybe your meaning was lost in translation?

Incidentally, for those wondering or interested: In the photo, Alfred Muhler, LZ37's sole survivor is back row, 2nd left.

Regards.

Bucky

[James A Pratt III]

I believe the book "Zeppelin in Combat" has some info on crew sizes and positions.

[Jempie]

Good evening!

I got by pure coincidence this week a quite dense correspondence with two people (A German and an author of Ghent) on subject of that LZ 35 history!

The Normal crex of LZ 35 was 8 (eight!)

However on that fatal flight that night , there was a civil crewmember who was on board to state the effects or result and effenciency of the bombing it seems!

How starnge that may sound!

it is this "civil" victim of the disaster who was some week after the burial at Ghent-Westerbegraafplaats which was transferred to BONN!

He was not at all a military guy!

What goes on the burial ceremony : no press was allowed ! it wqas done with military honour, but it seems indeed the presence of the press was totally forbidden!

Indeed the Germans tried to hide for the allies the loss of the LZ 37 and the loss of her crew(numbers)!

Hence all those "rumours" about the real numbers of crew lost! Also into our contemporary Belgian press! The other numbers were "rumours, or WWI-propaganda !

The man who contacted me earlier this week was from Germany, in function to Otto Van der Haeghen (spelijgn differs following sounrces! He gave up the German version of the name "van = von" in German!!)

It seems the roots from this commander are Belgian ! (His family was originally from Ninove - Belgium!) There are some guesses also the roots Otto Ackermann was also or from

origin Belgian or eventually from The Netherlands!

The war memorial at Ghent Westerbegraafplaats was paid by the family of Otto Ackermann, probaly because there was a firndship relayion between both (or thier families ?) it's so finally both were reburied under the terrace floor of the memorial..

Painfull is we have no documents when Otto Van der Haeg(h)en was bourght over under that terrace floor, as both the original graves from this Oblt's were in fact not at all situated on place where that memorial was constructed and where they rest today! Nodocuments excist about this story firther, I have only a copie of the register from 1915, but no other subsequent docvuments seems to exciqst from the transfert to the todays locations of the crew ! Even not from 1956-57 when the other crew got transferred to Vladslo!

One thing is now for sure : the normal crew of LZ 35 was only 8 !!!!

Which is on that pgoto! The 9th guy was some civil from BONN, which was occasional on board! !

vbr

Jempie

[Jasta72s]

Hello,

Jempie is completely right.

Another example: Z.V (lost on 28 August 1914) had a crew of 8. This number is also confirmed by several Russian and German reports.

"Flight" wrote:

"A message from Petrograd on the 29th- ult. gave the information that a Zeppelin had bombarded the railway station at Mlava (just over the border of Russian Poland). Being pursued and shot at, it was brought down about five miles from the railway station. There were eight soldiers in the car, with two quickfirers and explosives."