Patch identification if possible, please

[PPCLI]

Hello everyone,

I hope someone can tell me what the patch above the Sergeant's stripes represents. The man is one of a large group of senior NCOs photographed before their battalion proceeded overseas in May 1915. Apart from the eight Colour Sergeants, he is one of only two men with any additional 'insignia' (patch/badge/crown) above his stripes; his appears to be a patch with something above, possibly, a laurel wreath.

Thank you,

Stuart

[jay dubaya]

Hi Stuart,

given the date I'm inclined to say it could be the thistle of the 9th (Scottish) Division

cheers, Jon

[PPCLI]

Jon,

Thank you for your reply but in this case, it doesn't have anything to do with the 9th (Scottish) Division. These men went to Gallipoli with the 52nd (Lowland) Division.

Cheers,

Stuart

[jay dubaya]

in that case I retract my wild guess

Jon

[Muerrisch]

I am a bit puzzled by eight colour sergeants in a battalion in 1915, I must confess.

How recognised?

Regarding the badge over the chevrons, it may be MG in wreath, which would probably denote the MG Sergeant .... it was a badge of appointment for those qualified to instruct.

Any chance of a better scan?

[by the way, should be only RIGHT sleeve, but ........]

[Graham Stewart]

Just wonder if it's 'MG' in the wreath, although really difficult to make out???

[PPCLI]

Thank you both for the MG Sergeant info - it does tie in with other information I have. I can't do a better image; the one shown is a crop from a 1200 dpi scan (the badge is less than a mm on the original photo).

Regards the 8 Colour Sergeants - yes, I know that this was not the case by early 1915 but I used the term because all the men show the following:

I realise by this time they would actually be 4 W.O.II (CSMs) and 4 Colour Sergeants (CQMSs) and that the CSMs should have a crown on the lower part of the sleeve, but they all still appear to be kitted out 1914 style. Perhaps as territorials, they were near the end of the queue when the new kit was being handed out.

Thank you again,

Stuart

[Muerrisch]

Ah! Territorials

Not ordered to 4 coy org until AO 54 of 1915, and CSMs were badged as CSgts until WO II intro. AO 174 of that year, so yes, I am happy with 8 CSgts

[amazing what keeps me happy these days ......]

[PPCLI]

.... so yes, I am happy with 8 CSgts

Phew! Thought I was going to have to spend the afternoon sitting in the corner, head in hands.

I knew that the territorial 8- to 4-Company reorganisation took place at a much later date than the regular army but didn't realise that there was also a similar difference in the change to the ranking system. Could you give me an idea of the dates of these two AOs please? I have an idea that AO 54 may have been around February 1915 since at this time, the local newspapers carried articles on the formation of the double companies.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Muerrisch]

AO54 was Feb 1915.

WO IIs were created Jan/Feb also, but badge description was in May .... not only TF but army-wide.

[PPCLI]

Thank you for those dates - another important little detail sorted out.

Stuart

[Muerrisch]

nice to be able to return a favour.