hadfield Posted 7 April , 2009 Share Posted 7 April , 2009 Hi all, With reference to the attached picture, I would be very grateful if would help me out and identify the marking stamps and/or their purpose. I look forward to your replies. Regards Brimstone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinhat47 Posted 7 April , 2009 Share Posted 7 April , 2009 My SMLE book says the Crown, GR and crossed flags indicate "England land service rifles.". You probably already knew that though. Nothing on the three stokes and the S though :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 7 April , 2009 Share Posted 7 April , 2009 My SMLE book says the Crown, GR and crossed flags indicate "England land service rifles.". You probably already knew that though. Nothing on the three stokes and the S though :unsure: Those look like the standard point-to-point broad arrows, denoting an item that has been sold out of Government service at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 7 April , 2009 Share Posted 7 April , 2009 (edited) The O1E is an enfield inspector's stamp. The second is as Matt indicates I am at work so cannot check refs but my immediate reaction on the other was the same as Andrews - I think these are the sold out of service marks I'll check in an hour or so. Chris Edit: Confirming: Proof mark (Flags and Crown), Enfield Inspection mark and Sale mark (Two in-pointing arrows and S = sale mark = sold out of service) Have you removed the rear handguard and looked for other markings there - you will typically find more proofs (poss. also a commercial proof as it was sold out of service), a barrel date and all sorts of goodies....maybe Edited 8 April , 2009 by 4thGordons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadfield Posted 8 April , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 April , 2009 My SMLE book says the Crown, GR and crossed flags indicate "England land service rifles.". You probably already knew that though. Nothing on the three stokes and the S though Hi Andrew, Many thanks for this reply, I have to be honest and say that I didn't know what that stamp meant! Regards Brimstone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadfield Posted 8 April , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 April , 2009 The O1E is an enfield inspector's stamp. The second is as Matt indicates I am at work so cannot check refs but my immediate reaction on the other was the same as Andrews - I think these are the sold out of service marks I'll check in an hour or so. Chris Edit: Confirming: Proof mark (Flags and Crown), Enfield Inspection mark and Sale mark (Two in-pointing arrows and S = sale mark = sold out of service) Have you removed the rear handguard and looked for other markings there - you will typically find more proofs (poss. also a commercial proof as it was sold out of service), a barrel date and all sorts of goodies....maybe Hi Chris, It just gets better! Thanks for your contribution, now this might be a silly question but what exactly do you mean by the rear handguard? Regs Brimstone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinhat47 Posted 8 April , 2009 Share Posted 8 April , 2009 The handguards are the wood furniture that sits on the top of the rifle. The front handguard stretches from the front sights to the rear sights. The rear handguard sits between the rear sights and the receiver. In the top right of the picture below, you can see the rear handguard is no. 066, front handguard is 067 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 8 April , 2009 Share Posted 8 April , 2009 Hi Chris, It just gets better! Thanks for your contribution, now this might be a silly question but what exactly do you mean by the rear handguard? Regs Brimstone As Matt's diagram shows. It is the wooden bit on top of the barrel, visible at the top in your picture. It is held in place on the barrel with some spring clips and can be removed by CAREFULLY levering it off (be careful not to snap the fragile wooden "fingers" that potrude from the front of the piece - often removed in WWII and later rifles because of this fragility!) Once removed, you will be able to see both sides of the barrel knox form where it is screwed in to the action and lots of stamping is usually to be found here. These often include a serial number and barrel date, various inspection and proofing marks and sometimes other markings (FTR etc) which may be a clue to the rifle's service history (at least it should show if the rifle is fitted with its orginal barrel or if it has been.) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadfield Posted 9 April , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2009 The handguards are the wood furniture that sits on the top of the rifle. The front handguard stretches from the front sights to the rear sights. The rear handguard sits between the rear sights and the receiver. In the top right of the picture below, you can see the rear handguard is no. 066, front handguard is 067 Hi Matt, Many thanks for this, it will be very useful. Regs Brimstone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadfield Posted 9 April , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2009 As Matt's diagram shows. It is the wooden bit on top of the barrel, visible at the top in your picture. It is held in place on the barrel with some spring clips and can be removed by CAREFULLY levering it off (be careful not to snap the fragile wooden "fingers" that potrude from the front of the piece - often removed in WWII and later rifles because of this fragility!) Once removed, you will be able to see both sides of the barrel knox form where it is screwed in to the action and lots of stamping is usually to be found here. These often include a serial number and barrel date, various inspection and proofing marks and sometimes other markings (FTR etc) which may be a clue to the rifle's service history (at least it should show if the rifle is fitted with its orginal barrel or if it has been.) Chris Hi Chris, Excellent stuff! I removed the the rear hand-guard and found the said stamps. Most seem to be inspectors stamps and the barrel and the breach numbers match, but what caught my eye was the stamp under the rear-sight. Have look at the attached picture and see if it means anything to you? Also what does 'FTR' mean? Regs Brimstone NB: Seems like IIV SC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 9 April , 2009 Share Posted 9 April , 2009 Hi Chris, Excellent stuff! I removed the the rear hand-guard and found the said stamps. Most seem to be inspectors stamps and the barrel and the breach numbers match, but what caught my eye was the stamp under the rear-sight. Have look at the attached picture and see if it means anything to you? Regs Brimstone NB: Seems like IIV SC? High Velocity (HV) Short Cone (SC) means its sighted for the MkVII ammunition FTR = Factory Thorough Refinish (or Repair I can never remember) basically means it went through a complete and official refinishing process with everything brought up to current specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadfield Posted 10 April , 2009 Author Share Posted 10 April , 2009 High Velocity (HV) Short Cone (SC) means its sighted for the MkVII ammunition FTR = Factory Thorough Refinish (or Repair I can never remember) basically means it went through a complete and official refinishing process with everything brought up to current specs. Hi Chris, Genius, many thanks! Now with reference to the attached picture of the rifle butt, any thoughts about these markings? Just one last question, any idea when MkVII ammo came into use? Regs Brimstone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 10 April , 2009 Share Posted 10 April , 2009 (edited) Hi Chris, Genius, many thanks! Now with reference to the attached picture of the rifle butt, any thoughts about these markings? Just one last question, any idea when MkVII ammo came into use? Regs Brimstone TonyE is your man for ammunition. but MkVII came into use prior to WWI but there were still large stocks of the earlier MkVI around (and units equipped with rifles sighted for it) for at least 1914-15. I can look it up when I get back but if TonyE sees this he can tell you immediately. The buttstock marking disk (the brass disk) was used to stamp the unit to whom the rifle had been issued (ordered removed mid-war, practice reinstituted post war). Yours looks like A.A. and for the life of me I cannot come up with a unit: {blank} Artillery? (may be a public school too OTC too so [blank} Acadamedy. The number was usually the rack (or sequential) number. Again - there are others (calling Seph!) who have better knowledge/lists than I. Chris Edit: I just remembered - I think we had an 07 bayonet on here a while ago that was A.A. marked... and the suggestion was it may be Arden Academy (or some such) Edited 10 April , 2009 by 4thGordons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadfield Posted 11 April , 2009 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2009 TonyE is your man for ammunition. but MkVII came into use prior to WWI but there were still large stocks of the earlier MkVI around (and units equipped with rifles sighted for it) for at least 1914-15. I can look it up when I get back but if TonyE sees this he can tell you immediately. The buttstock marking disk (the brass disk) was used to stamp the unit to whom the rifle had been issued (ordered removed mid-war, practice reinstituted post war). Yours looks like A.A. and for the life of me I cannot come up with a unit: {blank} Artillery? (may be a public school too OTC too so [blank} Acadamedy. The number was usually the rack (or sequential) number. Again - there are others (calling Seph!) who have better knowledge/lists than I. Chris Edit: I just remembered - I think we had an 07 bayonet on here a while ago that was A.A. marked... and the suggestion was it may be Arden Academy (or some such) Hi Chris, Again many thanks, but the butt stamps are two V's or arrows. Don't know if that will mean anything? Regs Brimstone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 11 April , 2009 Share Posted 11 April , 2009 Hi Chris, Again many thanks, but the butt stamps are two V's or arrows. Don't know if that will mean anything? Regs Brimstone Arrows most likely - the "Broad Arrow" (sometimes referred to as a "Crow's foot" - sorry TonyE) indicates "inspected and accepted for government service" are they are to be found stamped, engraved, printed and/or inked on almost every bit of kit you run accross BTW there should be a brass screw in the middle of that disc holding it in! (Have you prised it out and had a look on the back - these were often reused and there may be other markings on the back.) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadfield Posted 13 April , 2009 Author Share Posted 13 April , 2009 Arrows most likely - the "Broad Arrow" (sometimes referred to as a "Crow's foot" - sorry TonyE) indicates "inspected and accepted for government service" are they are to be found stamped, engraved, printed and/or inked on almost every bit of kit you run accross BTW there should be a brass screw in the middle of that disc holding it in! (Have you prised it out and had a look on the back - these were often reused and there may be other markings on the back.) Chris Hi Chris, Interestingly, I have removed the butt disc and all that was on the back was the proper broad-arrow stamp, which bears no resemblance to the two on the front. It's a shame and frustrating not to be able to ID those markings, although butt discs can be added/swopped quite easily at any time, this one was on there very firmly suggesting to me that it had been on there some time. Thanks Brimstone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 I missed the start of this thread as I have only just got back from the International Ammunition Assoc. show in St. Louis. Britain adopted the Mark VII round in 1910, but as Chris says, there were still vast numbers of rifles still sighted for Mark VI ammunition, including all those of the territorial forces and all the SMLEs made since 1902 but prior to 1910. Australia continued to manufacture the SMLE sighted for Mark VI ammunition almost until the end of the war and ammuntion production there did not switch to Mark VII until February 1918. A similar situation existed in India. The Crown, GR, crossed pennants are the factory proof mark, and are not necessarily only for Land Service rifles. Naval Service rifles would be proofed in the same way. If the marks on the butt disc are simply two broad arrows then they only signify government ownership rather than any unit dentification. I cannot tell from the picture, but if they are "V", could they actually be "88" in Arabic? Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadfield Posted 13 April , 2009 Author Share Posted 13 April , 2009 Hi Tony, Thanks for the info about MKVII .303 ammo. The stamps on the butt-disc are two V's and if they mean "88" in Arabic, what is the implication? Regs Brimstone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 No particular significance, I was just wondering, since the butt disc markings does not look particularly British. The normal marking was an issue date, usually in the format MM.YY, with a unit abbreviation below, and a rack number below that. So many of these rifles found their way post war to places like Iraq and Jordan that it is not uncommon to find Arabic stamps on an SMLE. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadfield Posted 15 April , 2009 Author Share Posted 15 April , 2009 No particular significance, I was just wondering, since the butt disc markings does not look particularly British. The normal marking was an issue date, usually in the format MM.YY, with a unit abbreviation below, and a rack number below that. So many of these rifles found their way post war to places like Iraq and Jordan that it is not uncommon to find Arabic stamps on an SMLE. Regards TonyE Hi Tony, Many thanks for that, it is indeed "food for thought" and wouldn't it be nice if these could talk? Regs Brimstone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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