'Schützenhöhlen'

[Simon Jones]

Can anyone give me a good translation for ‘Schützenhöhlen’, the German corrugated iron shelters also called Siegfried shelters? Obviously I can work out a literal translation but none of them really sound right.

thanks

[SiegeGunner]

Unless the construction of the shelter is the subject of the sentence, I would just call it a dugout. The German half-round corrugated 'liner' is similar to the British elephant shelter, and both were used to construct cut-and-covered and mined dugouts. Straining to include all the technical nuances of German terms that are not central to the meaning of the sentence can make your text extremely cumbersome and distract from the main message.

Mick

[JimSmithson]

I agree with Mick. If I were translating the other way 'dug out' would not make much sense to a German if I said ausgegraben. Protective cave might sound poetic but not in a sentence about where you found troops during a bombardment for example.

Jim

[Simon Jones]

Unless the construction of the shelter is the subject of the sentence,

Yes it is! The whole chapter is on dugouts. This is the sentence:

"These were little more than shelters and prefabricated galvanised corrugated iron sheets were introduced for this purpose known Schützenhöhlen (**** *****) or Siegfried shelters."

[SiegeGunner]

In that case, Simon, use the German term. The sentence reads absolutely fine as you quote it. Perhaps also get in the fact that they were semi-circular/half-round (assuming that's the type they were). An explanation, as you have, followed by the German term is useful to the reader as it gives them the original term, in case they meet it again.

Mick

[Simon Jones]

Mick & Jim

Thanks - I just wanted to explain the German term. I'll be using a drawing as well so they'll get the shape.

S

[nigelfe]

Bombardment shelter would a reasonble and fairly literal translation.

[john jerome mcmanus]

G'day all,

I have very little grounding in German but 'schutzen is a form of the noun/verb shoot and I imagine hohlen is in the same form for hole.

Whether this means a hole to shoot from or a hole to take cover from shooting I cannot answer.

Where are our German speakers?

Regards

Pop

[truthergw]

You have just read posts from German speakers. Schutzen also carries the meaning of protect.

[SiegeGunner]

A 'Schütze' is a rifleman/infantryman and a 'Höhle' is a cave or a burrow/den etc of an animal (or a similar man-made structure). A 'Schützenloch' is a 'rifle pit' or 'foxhole'. If this kind of 'Schützenhöhle' is just a half-round corrugated-iron shrapnel/splinter shelter (like the top part of an Anderson shelter), simply standing on the surface of the ground (as used in elastic defence zones later in the war), then perhaps 'lightweight infantry shelter' will cover it.

Mick

PS Tom is correct that the verb 'schützen' means 'to protect', from which come various words beginning or ending with 'Schutz-' or '-schutz', relating to protection/defence.

[egbert]

Yes it is! The whole chapter is on dugouts. This is the sentence:

"These were little more than shelters and prefabricated galvanised corrugated iron sheets were introduced for this purpose known Schützenhöhlen (**** *****) or Siegfried shelters."

A very unique word which I have never heard in all my "German" life. I can abstract the word but it is still not good "old" German language. I wonder where the author has the term found and thus using it in his book/essay. At first hand I tend to believe that he actually means something like Schutzhoehle which makes a little more "German" language sense. So here you guys have a German point of view.

[Simon Jones]

This is it, from Der Stellungskrieg by F. Seesselberg (Berlin 1926).

[egbert]

Ok you and the f+$%^&*ing author means something like a Schutzloch. And what you have depicted now, I would translate "dug-out" Period

[egbert]

P.S. dug-out = der Unterstand. (Sesselburg always used "strange" word combinations)

[Simon Jones]

Egbert, thank you!

Simon

[truthergw]

Ok you and the f+$%^&*ing author means something like a Schutzloch. And what you have depicted now, I would translate "dug-out" Period

Hi Egbert. I am desperately searching through my Langenscheidt for f+$%^&*ing and can't find it. Is there an umlaut missing, perhaps?

[Steven Broomfield]

I think he swerved into Anglo-Saxon.

[SiegeGunner]

I agree with Egbert that this word is not one commonly found in period sources, but it does appear in the General Staff (Intelligence) Vocabulary of German Military Terms (1918 - reprinted by the IWM 1995), which is based on terms encountered in captured German documents. As I suggested in post #2, I would generally translate it as 'dugout' (same as 'Unterstand'), although, in the example illustrated, it's actually more of a high-tech funk hole.

Incidentally, if the belief that this was called a 'Siegfried shelter' comes from Abb.98 'Schützenhöhle aus der Siegfried- und Wotanstellung', that may be an inference too far – Siegfried and Wotan being sectors of the Hindenburg Line.

[Robert Dunlop]

Simon, thanks very much for the images. Now I can see why you are having some difficulty. These were not dugouts in the usual sense of the word, at least as most commonly assigned to deep relatively spacious underground living accommodations, etc. Schützenhöhlen were small, up to 3 man, buried shelters. Were they used for accommodation as well as temporary shelter, presumably, during bombardments?

Robert

... more of a high-tech funk hole.

Mick, that's it.

Robert

[Simon Jones]

Robert

I am pretty certain they were introduced when the new defensive regulations prohibited deep and large dugouts in the front line. There is a good passage in Copse 125 pp. 17-20. The sections could also be used for inclined dugout entrances. I think I have seen them in the Vosges but can't lay my hands on my photos at present.

S

[egbert]

Ernst Juenger's episodes of Waeldchen 125 (copse 125) happened in 1918, far away from the Siegfried line. They were figthing in the old 1914 front line trenches. The 3 pages in question about dug-outs in the book Waeldchen 125 (German edition!!!!) call the dug-outs they take shelter in as either "Unterstand" or "Siegfriedbunker". Nothing else!

[Robert Dunlop]

Simon, they are entirely consistent with a policy of distributing defensive resources, rather than concentrating them. The British adapted in this way too, hence the elephant shelters.

Egbert, thanks very much for checking on Juenger's original text!

Robert

[Jack Sheldon]

At the risk of being rebuked for advertising, have a look in my German Army at Passchendaele (available in all good libraries!). I included a photo of one of these things and I would not describe it as a dugout. It could be made splinterproof if enough earth was dumped on it, but it was open at one end and was primarily intended to be protection from the elements.

Jack

[truthergw]

I have a notion that in the very early days, scoops out of the side of the trench were known by the British as dugouts. I am kneedeep in books on a different theme but I will try to look out a captioned picture when I get the chance. Funkholes have been mentioned and I believe this is the same thing.

[SiegeGunner]

I included a photo of one of these things and I would not describe it as a dugout. It could be made splinterproof if enough earth was dumped on it, but it was open at one end and was primarily intended to be protection from the elements.

I see two pix, Jack - one on the fourth page of photos and one on the final page. Both are of a half-round structure similar to (but smaller than) an elephant shelter (and identical to field shelters for pigs kept outdoors in more recent times), the first parked up against a bank and the second two buried. That is what I was expecting before Simon posted the drawing, which is perplexing as the corrugated iron lining is arched. What your pics show is what I would call a small infantry shelter, but Simon's Abb. 98 is more of a luxury funk-hole. Obviously the prefab corrugated iron structure could be used in various ways.

Perhaps we could call it a dug-in ...