BigT Posted 2 April , 2009 Posted 2 April , 2009 I am just reading a biography of Apsley Cherry-Garrard, who served with Scott on his final expedition to the Antarctic. During WW1 he served in No 5 Squadron RNAS Armoured Car Division. Though he served in Belgium and Northern France there is not much detail of what they did. Silly question I know, but is there anywhere I can read more?
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 3 April , 2009 Posted 3 April , 2009 Have you searched the forum for previous threads on RNAS Armoured Cars?
melliget Posted 5 April , 2009 Posted 5 April , 2009 Trevor. I thought Cherry-Garrard's obituary in The Times (he died in London 18 May 1959, aged 73) might have had further details on his war service but only this: The Times, Tuesday, May 19, 1959 .. Returned to England, he recovered his spirits for a while and when the First World War began he raised a squadron of armoured cars and took it to Flanders. He had never quite recovered from his strenu- ous journeys in the Antarctic and he had soon to return to England and was invalided out of the service. He spent the remaining years of the war in doctors' hands at his ancestral home of Lamer Park at Wheathampstead, and began to write the classic of polar narrative, The Worst Journey in the World. .. His RNAS service record appears to be available from the NA (not via DocumentsOnline): Item details ADM 273/5/90 Page 90: Aspley Cherry Garrard. RNAS Officers Service A search of the NA catalogue for "armoured car" brings up some ADM hits but none specifically for No 5 Squadron: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...hInit=6&j=1 There is some general info available on armoured cars via Google Books: http://books.google.co.uk/books?q=RNAS+%22armoured+car%22 Change the option Showing to "Limited preview and full view". regards, Martin
melliget Posted 6 April , 2009 Posted 6 April , 2009 There were about 30 naval men involved in the Scott's Antarctic expedition (probably more, incl. those who, like Cherry-Garrard, later joined up for the war), as shown in a list of men awarded the Polar Medal in 1913. The Times, Saturday, Jul 26, 1913 THE ANTARCTIC EXPEDITION POLAR MEDAL AWARDS The King will receive the members of the British Antarctic Expedition at Buckingham Palace at 11.30 this morning, when his Majesty will present the medals which have been specially struck. The following appeared in the London Gazette of last night:- ADMIRALTY, JULY 24. His Majesty the King has been graciously pleased to approve of the Polar Medal with clasp inscribed "Antarctic, 1910-1913," being granted to the undermentioned members of the British Antarctic Expedition, 1910-1913, the medal and clasp to be in silver for those who served more than one voyage, and in bronze for those who made one voyage only; the silver clasp alone being awarded to those who already possess the silver Polar Medal:- SILVER MEDAL Captain Robert Falcon Scott, C.V.O., D.Sc., R.N. (deceased) (clasp only) Commander Edward Ratcliffe Garth Russell Evans, C.B., R.N. Commander Harry Lewin Lee Pennell, R.N. Commander Victor Lindsey Arbuthnot Campbell, R.N. Lieutenant Henry Edward de Parny Rennick, R.N. Lieutenant Henry Roberton Bowers, R.I.M. (deceased) Commander Wilfrid Montague Bruce, R.N.R. Captain Lawrence E. G. Oates, 6th Inniskilling Dragoons (deceased) Surgeon George Murray Levick, R.N. Surgeon Edward Leicester Atkinson, R.N. Assistant Paymaster Francis Randall Hugo Drake, R.N. Edward Adrian Wilson, M.A., M.B. (deceased) (clasp only) George C. Simpson, D.Sc. T. Griffith Taylor, B.A., B.Sc., B.E. Edward W. Nelson Dennis G. Lillie, M.A. Frank Debenham, B.A., B.Sc. Charles S. Wright, B.A. Raymond E. Priestley (clasp only) Herbert G. Ponting, F.R.G.S. Cecil H. Meares Bernard C. Day (clasp only) Apsley Cherry-Garrard, B.A. Tryggve Gran Francis Edward Charles Davies, Acting Carpenter, R.N. William Williams, R.N. William A. Horton, R.N. Alfred B. Cheetham, R.N.R. W. W. Archer W. Lashley, R.N. (clasp only) Thomas Clissold Edgar Evans, R.N. (deceased) (clasp only) Robert Forde, R.N. Thomas Crean, R.N. (clasp only) Thomas S. Williamson, R.N. (clasp only) Patrick Keohane, R.N. George P. Abbott, R.N. Frank V. Browning, R.N. Harry Dickason, R.N. Frank J. Hooper Frederick Parsons, R.N. William L. Heald (clasp only) Arthur S. Bailey, R.N. Albert Balson, R.N. Joseph Leese, R.N. John Hugh Mather, R.N.V.R. Thomas F. McLeod Mortimer McCarthy Charles Williams William McDonald James Paton Robert Brissenden, R.N. (deceased) Edward A. McKenzie, R.N. William Burton Angus McDonald Thomas McGillion W. H. Neale Anton Omelchenko Demetri Gerof BRONZE MEDAL James R. Denniston Robert Oliphant William Knowles James Skelton Bernard J. Stone, R.N. Charles Lammas At least two died in WW1: Commander Harry Lewin Lee Pennell, R.N. - d. 31/05/1916, HMS Queen Mary Lieutenant Henry Edward de Parny Rennick, R.N. - d. 22/09/1914, HMS Hogue regards, Martin
BigT Posted 7 April , 2009 Author Posted 7 April , 2009 Only the British The thing that struck me reading the account of Scott's expedition, was that even in the Antarctic they had Officers quarters and separate ORs quarters!
BigT Posted 7 April , 2009 Author Posted 7 April , 2009 I should have done this in the first place. I Googled RNAS Armoured Cars and got this The Royal Navy's Armoured Car Units [/color] For those well acquainted with the development of the tank, its history has been intimately associated with the Royal Navy at the early stages. The reason why the Navy took an interest under Churchill was because of the initial success of Samson’s Armoured car squadron in the opening stages of the war. The Dunkirk Armoured Car Force. On The 27th August 1914, a brigade of Marines was landed at Ostend, in support of the Belgian Army retreating in the face of the advancing German Army. A RNAS squadron (The Eastchurch Squadron) was landed in support of the Royal Navy Marine Brigade, though the Marines did not remain very long, as the situation rapidly deteriorated. The Marines were ordered to withdraw on the 30th August. The RNAS squadron withdrew to Dunkirk. Commander C. R. Samson, the squadrons leader, contrived a reason for remaining in France, which Churchill seized upon for keeping a Naval force on French soil. Churchill saw that a Squadron based at Dunkirk would enhance the aerial defence of Britain. From the outset, the squadron had realised the value of the motor car for reconnaissance and rescuing downed pilots. At Dunkirk the squadron continued its reconnaissance activities in unarmoured cars, but an incident occurred on the 4th September 1914 that convinced Samson that the cars should be Armoured. Armoured Plate was improvised by attaching boilerplate to the outside of the vehicles. By mid October 17 such vehicles had been converted. At Home, Commodore Murrey Seuter (Director of Air Division) and Churchill took steps to provide 50 to 60 Armoured Cars based on the Rolls Royce Silver Ghost and the Lanchester touring cars. These vehicles had Armoured Plate applied and were fully enclosed with a revolving turret. Experience in France had shown that open topped Armoured Cars exposed their crews to undue risk. The first Armoured cars arrived in France in December 1914, by which time mobility on the Western Front had been lost, as the Armies of Europe had starting digging the trench system that would eventually reach from the Channel to the Swiss boarder. David Fletcher in "War Cars" does suggest that by this time Samson's force had been divided into 4 Armoured Car Squadrons. Each squadron was supposedly to have had an establishment of 15 AC. The Force was made up of a combination of Rolls- Royces, Worseley and Clement-Talbots. AC Squadrons Formed Disbanded Comments Eastchurch Squadron Aug 1914 This was an improvised squadron made up of vehicles available at the time with adhoc armour applied, this being mainly Boiler Plate. No 1 Squadron Oct 1914 No 2 Squadron Oct 1914 No 3 Squadron Oct 1914 No 4 Squadron Oct 1914 The Royal Navy Armoured Car Division. Due to Samson’s success, it was decided that a Royal Navy Armoured Car Division would be formed. The HQ was opened at 48 Dover Street near Piccadilly. The Division was placed under the command of Commander F.L.M. Boothby. Men for the Division were recruited from all over the Empire. These men were required to sit a rigorous Mechanical Competence and Medical examination. Those who passed were rewarded well, with higher rates of pay and given the rank of Petty Officer (Mechanic). The Army was less farsighted; those who were mechanically competent entered the Army as a private, with a private's pay. The original organisation of the Division consisted of 15 Armoured Car Squadrons, each squadron had an establishment of 3 sections and each section was equipped with 4 AC, 1 Armoured Lorry, 2 Supply Waggons and 8 Motor Cycles . The Divisions Establishment was increased to 20 Squadrons after a number of re-organisations. When mobility was lost on the Western Front, the RNACD was ready to enter the field. The need for the formation in the short term vanished and gave fuel to the arguments of those who felt this was an inappropriate venture for the Navy to undertake. The formation’s fate was sealed once Churchill left the position as first sea Lord after the debacle at Gallipoli. Before the unit was disbanded in the summer of 1915, its Armoured Cars were transferred to the Army. However, by this time a number of units had been sent overseas. The 2nd Squadron was sent to France in March 1915 followed by the 5th, 8th and 15th Squadrons. The 16th, 17th and 18th Squadrons were formed in France. The 3rd and 4th Squadrons were sent to the Dardanelles, but after landing a small number of AC, which could not contribute to the campaign due to the terrain, the squadrons were dispatched to Egypt. They arrived at the end of August 1915. Further Squadrons were dispatched to German East Africa, to assist with the capture of German territories in Africa. Not all of the RN Armoured car Squadrons were disbanded with the demise of the RNACD. The Commander of the 15th Squadron (Lampson) was a well connected, ambitious and politically creative animal. However, with his connections, he was able to convince the Russians of the virtues of using Armoured Cars within the Russian Army. The Russians did not need to be convinced as they were at this time buying up as many Armoured cars as possible. Lampson volunteered his unit for service within the Russian Army, which the Russians were more than willing to accept. He then convinced the Admiralty that one squadron was not sufficient and a division of three squadrons was more suitable. The three squadrons came from the 15th and 17th Squadrons and volunteers from the other units being disbanded. These units became known as The Russian Armoured Car Division. The formation consisted of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Squadrons. The formation fought in Russia with some distinction up until the Russian revolution, when things became difficult and the men were sent progressively home on leave. The final Members of the formations rear elements finally escaped via train to Murmansk and arrived back in the UK in February 1918. Another unit was also to remain as part of the Royal Navy. This unit was the 20th Squadron, which was formed as a technical and experimental unit of the RNACD. This unit assisted the Landships Committee with tank trials and development throughout 1915 and 1916. At the end of the war, the Squadron had over 600 members. Units of the RN Armoured Car Division (RNACD). AC Squadrons Formed Disbanded Comments No 1 Squadron 1914 One section sent to East Africa No 2 Squadron 1914 Formed by the Duke of Westminster. Sent to France in 1915, later to Egypt 1916 No 3 Squadron 1914 Sent to the Dardanelles, later transferred to Egypt. No 4 Squadron 1914 Sent to the Dardanelles, later transferred to Egypt. No 5 Squadron 1914 Sent to France No 6 Squadron 1914 Sent to France No 7 Squadron 1914 Remained in the UK carrying out anti invasion duties. No 8 Squadron 1914 Sent to France No 9 Squadron 1914 Sent to the Dardanelles No 10 Squadron 1914 Sent to the Dardanelles No 11 Squadron 1914 Sent to the Dardanelles No 12 Squadron 1914 Sent to the Dardanelles No 13 Squadron 1914 Remained in the UK No 14 Squadron 1914 Part Sent to France No 15 Squadron 1914 Formed by Oliver Locker Lampson. Sent to France. Later became part of the Russian Armoured Car Division as 1st Squadron. No 16 Squadron 1915 Formed in France from misc. RNACD units. No 17 Squadron 1915 Formed in France from misc. RNACD units. No 18 Squadron 1915 Formed in France from misc. RNACD units. No 19 Squadron 1915 Never completely formed. No 20 Squadron 1915 Formed by AJ Balfour, and became the experimental arm of the Landships Committee. It remained part of the RN until December 1917, when it was transferred to the Royal Marines. There were another 3 Squadrons projected but never completely formed by the time the divison was disbanded.
MartinWills Posted 7 April , 2009 Posted 7 April , 2009 The armoured cars varied in make (typically a commercial chassis and an armoured body added - I know that in at least one London Bus chassis was converted, but of course you might equally have had a Rolls Royce!
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