sjustice Posted 2 April , 2009 Share Posted 2 April , 2009 Hello all, Does anyone with access to German histories/diaries have information on the weight and nature of the preparatory bombardment and barrage, and composition of the units involved, for the German assault of 4th October 1917? The British history, whilst noting "prominent" use of enfilade fire from guns "widely dispersed" and "well hidden in houses and huts" [and by smoke screens], merely states that the bombardment fell on the front of I and II Anzac Corps at 5.20am and continued [by implication] until the British barrage opened up at 6.00am. This is confirmed by the Australian history which, although giving more detail of the effects, is no more help on the matter in hand. Cheers, Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Henschke Posted 4 April , 2009 Share Posted 4 April , 2009 Simon, The objective for the German attack, code named “Höhensturm,” was to take Tokio Spur, with the intention of regaining their previously lost key terrain from Zonnebeke to the western exit road of Molenaarelsthoek near Polygon Wood ; a frontage of around 1600 metres. The attack was to be carried out by all three battalions of Reserve Infantry Regiment 212, which was reinforced by eight Sturmtrupps with Flammenwerfer from the 4th Army Sturm Battalion and a Minenwerfer Company of the 45th Reserve Division. They were strongly protected on each flank by regiments of the 4th Guard Division, while one battalion of the Reserve Infantry Regiment 211 was in support. I think that I may have some information regarding the German artillery involved but it won't be very detailed. I'll have a look for it. Chris Henschke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjustice Posted 4 April , 2009 Author Share Posted 4 April , 2009 ... I think that I may have some information regarding the German artillery involved but it won't be very detailed. I'll have a look for it. Chris Henschke Cheers Chris, Will be much appreciated Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken S. Posted 6 April , 2009 Share Posted 6 April , 2009 Cheers Chris, Will be much appreciated Simon The 5th Guard Regiment of Foot (4th Guard Division) describes the German artillery at about 3am as "ausserordentlich lebhafter Feuertaetigkeit" and at 5:35am as "Vernichtungsfeuer". The regimental history states that October 4 was the worst day of the war up until that point with 91 killed and 153 wounded (6 later dow). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 7 April , 2009 Share Posted 7 April , 2009 The attack was to be carried out by all three battalions of Reserve Infantry Regiment 212, which was reinforced by eight Sturmtrupps with Flammenwerfer from the 4th Army Sturm Battalion and a Minenwerfer Company of the 45th Reserve Division. They were strongly protected on each flank by regiments of the 4th Guard Division, while one battalion of the Reserve Infantry Regiment 211 was in support. Chris Henschke The Flammenwerfer were from 12. Kompagnie, Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment (Flammenwerfer) . The Flamm=Pioniere lost one man killed. (I realize that that was not your central question.) Most storm battalions (almost certainly including Sturm=Bataillon Nr. 4) did not have their own Flammenwerfer and had to borrow them from the flame regiment, by application to the OHL. One platoon of each flame company was modified to make it more suitable for loan to a storm unit. My father was "loaned" to Sturm=Bataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr) several times at Verdun, although this unit did have a platoon of their own Flammenwerfer. Chris, do you have a specific source for your information on this attack, that I could squirrel away in my files for when I get back to my Flammenwerfer book? Bob Lembke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Henschke Posted 7 April , 2009 Share Posted 7 April , 2009 Simon, The only information I have regarding artillery is this; '...artillery of the 10th Ers. Div. and 20th Div, Minenwerfer coy of the 45th R.D.,' As to the time of the barrage; 'The attack was to be launched, after about half-an hours bombardment..' Bob, This information comes from Captain Herbertson, who researched the information in the Reicharchiv in Potsdam in 1923, in reply to specific questions from C.E.W. Bean. Herbertson was a British Army intelligence officer attached to the Australians for some time during the war, but at that time he was with the British Army on the Rhine. The AWM file number is 3DRL 6673. Chris Henschke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 7 April , 2009 Share Posted 7 April , 2009 This information comes from Captain Herbertson, who researched the information in the Reicharchiv in Potsdam in 1923, in reply to specific questions from C.E.W. Bean. Herbertson was a British Army intelligence officer attached to the Australians for some time during the war, but at that time he was with the British Army on the Rhine. The AWM file number is 3DRL 6673. Chris Henschke Chris; To put this together, Bean posed questions to a Captain Herbertson, and he researched the question at the Reichsarchiv in Potsdam in 1923. Presumably his results got to Bean, and the papers, the fruits of his research, are stored at the Australian War Memorial in file 3DRL 6673. Is there any practical way for a Yank to get some more info on this attack? I have exceptional library access, due to the Super-Librarian spousal unit. Did Bean incorporate some of this information, especially the role of the storm formations and Flammenwerfer, in his published work? Please understand that I am interested in this, but not exceedingly, and am specifically not trying to con someone to get off of his duff and look the original Herbertson material up. Is there published info on this attack? I am working in other vinyards presently, but I have an immense amount of Flammenwerfer material, and hope to publish some day. Thanks. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken S. Posted 7 April , 2009 Share Posted 7 April , 2009 The regimental history of the 46th Field Artillery, which was part of the 20th Infantry Division, simply states that "most" of the artillery from the 20th Division participated in the bombardment, but does not go into specifics. The rest of the day's events are covered in a fair amount of detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billelliott@optushome.com. Posted 13 May , 2009 Share Posted 13 May , 2009 I also have a great interest in the German Assault at Broodseinde on 4th October 1917 as my great uncle William Brimelow a lewis gunner in the 22nd AIF (6th Brigade, 2nd Division, I Anzac Corps) was killed that morning and I trying to under stand the steps that occurred and to learn more of the 212 Reserve Regiment that faced the 22nd AIF that morning. I would appreciate any assistance in pointing me towards information for this day and towards a repository of german unit records for the 212 Reserve Regiment. Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedelmar Posted 13 May , 2009 Share Posted 13 May , 2009 My uncle 2809 Pte Harold Day 44th Bn AIF DOW that day too. I would be interested in information as well. Bright Blessings Sandra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken S. Posted 13 May , 2009 Share Posted 13 May , 2009 Regimental history: Link zu diesem Datensatz http://d-nb.info/58064247X Titel Geschichte des Reserve-Infanterie-Regiments Nr. 212 im Weltkriege 1914-1918 : nach d. Kriegsakten d. Rgts u. d. 45. Res. Div. u. nach d. im Verz. genannten Quellen geschrieben / Ernst Makoben Personen Makoben, Ernst Verleger Oldenburg : Gerh. Stalling Erscheinungsjahr 1933 Umfang/Format 784 S. : mit Abb., Ktn, zahlr. Taf. ; gr. 8 Gesamttitel Erinnerungsblätter deutscher Regimenter ; Der Schriftenfolge Bd. 352 Einband/Preis Lw. : 25. Listing from the BA-MA in Freiburg for 45RD: http://www.bundesarchiv.de/foxpublic/26B9E.../findmittel.jsp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Henschke Posted 27 January , 2011 Share Posted 27 January , 2011 I know this is a very late addition, but I have just discovered a translation that I transcribed about 7 years ago regarding German artillery for the attack launched on 4 October 1917. 5 FOOT GUARDS Orders for the Hohensturm Attack 1/10/17 (5) From 5.35 am to 6 am all Divisional Artillery and Minen-Werfers will open annihilating fire on the objective to mask the point of entry – flanking divisions will put down equally annihilating fire on their barrage sectors and barrage on the flanks of the sector to be attacked. From 6 to 6.10 am the 4th Gd. Divn. Will lift barrage about 200 metres. MW’s will cease fire. 6.10 am – further lifting of barrage to be maintained in equal intensity until 7 am when it will gradually slacken off. (6) On the night – gas will let off into the battery nests X 45 – 46. From 5.25 am hostile fire will be kept down by artillery or flanking divisions. (7) GOC, RA 4th Gd. Divn. Will so allot his areas that in case of hostile attacks barrage and annihilating fire can be given at any moment. (8) For liaison with the artillery, each Battalion of the 212 RIR will allot one Art. Officer patrol who will be supplied with telephone – lamp signaling trupp – pigeons and light pistols. These officer patrols alone will have the right to signal “Light Barrage”. (9) The Division will advise Zero hour to all concerned at 7 pm of the 2nd October. Signed – Count Finchausten regards, Chris Henschke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted 27 January , 2011 Share Posted 27 January , 2011 Chris signed – Count Finchausten I am assuming that should be Count Finckenstein (Generalmajor Bernard Graf Finck von Finckenstein), the commander of 4. Garde-Infanterie-Division. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Henschke Posted 27 January , 2011 Share Posted 27 January , 2011 Probably, but that is how it was translated by I ANZAC Corps intelligence in 1917! Chris Henschke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 28 January , 2011 Share Posted 28 January , 2011 These officer patrols alone will have the right to signal “Light Barrage”.On a similar note, this was probably incorrectly translated and should be 'Lift Barrage'.Thanks very much, Chris, for taking the time to post these details. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 2 February , 2011 Share Posted 2 February , 2011 This friendly looking guy is Bernard Graf Finck von Finckenstein, a wonderful aristocratic name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Henschke Posted 3 February , 2011 Share Posted 3 February , 2011 The photograph was obviously taken on the afternoon of 4 October 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 3 February , 2011 Share Posted 3 February , 2011 And here was me thinking he only lived from 4.7.1913 to 10.9.1814 Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 4 February , 2011 Share Posted 4 February , 2011 Hmm, Robert. He was commanding officer of Kaiser Alexander Garde-Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 1 from 4. Juli 1913 bis 10. September 1914. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_Alexander_Garde-Grenadier-Regiment_Nr._1 Fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 4 February , 2011 Share Posted 4 February , 2011 Thank you very much for the link, Fritz. Very interesting. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 20 February , 2011 Share Posted 20 February , 2011 Hello, I have written an article about this attack for the Belgian WFA in 2007. I put it on a Dutch forum as well: 4 oktober 1917 - Unternehmung Höhensturm (unfortunately not all the picture links are still working). I hope you can all read Dutch? Regards, Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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