Transatlantic Spies?

[Guest]

Hi Phil

that was awesome

off topic a bit my mothers family way back comes from Stowe Maries and Woodham Mortimer and we were there 2 years ago, I did not know about the airfield but we only had a couple of days there, a really nice part of England.

Thanks

Peter

[ph0ebus]

Hi all,

I finally got a chance to visit NYPL today in regards to checking out 'History of the Ministry of Munitions', with the hope it would shed some light on our current line of enquiry; I have two things to say on the subject:

(1) It will be very useful, and

(2) Crikey! It's a lot of material to go through.

I only had an hour or so to have a look and spent much of that time waiting for the microfilm to be produced and navigating technical problems with the microfilm readers. However, in the final 10 minutes I finally got my first look and copied the few pages I could quickly spy that referenced shell inspection.

Here's an excerpt which I think informs us a bit about how AEB got his job and how he did what he did, from Part II, Ch. VII - Control of Materials/Inspection & Manufacturing Methods, p. 144-145:

B- Shell Inspection Overseas

"The scarcity of steel in Great Britain made it essential to obtain supplimentary supplies, and early in the war, contracts were placed in the Bethlehem Steel Company and other great steel corporations in the United States. As American steel manufacturers could not be induced to accept contracts on the conditions laid down in the British home specifcation for the H.E. shell steel, the specifications had to be relaxed to induce them to undertake orders.

The task of inspection in the United States was one of great difficulty, as the manufacturers did not appreciate the high standard required and rigid re-inspection was necessary when the forgings and shells reached England. The need for a more adequate staff of trained inspectors became pressing and the unsatisfactory nature of some of the steel shipped to England in the winter of 1915-1916 brought matters to a crisis.

The system of inspection was re-organized by General Minchin (April to September, 1916) who was followed by Colonel Kenyon. The latter held a detailed investigation into the methods of inspection then in force. Two traveling inspectors were appointed to stadardise steel inspection and to re-examine a percentage of the inspected work, making their reports direct to headquarters. Hitherto the selection of tests and inspection of the breaking of samples had been largely left to examiners and the tests had been taken by the firm. Colonel Kenyon decided, upon the advice of Mr. Collinson, that in future the fracture of all test pieces should be witnessed by and inspector who would take his own records of the results."

Interesting stuff. I will be making more trips and will hopefully be a bit more strateginc in my reading and copying going forward.

Take care,

-Daniel

[Kath]

Thanks, Daniel.

Very interesting.

Kath.

[phil@basildon]

Daniel, you may find this of interest:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_stand...nd_measurements

[Guest]

Daniel

This is very interesting stuff and would make a great book or doco, there is a story to be told.

Peter

[ph0ebus]

Daniel

This is very interesting stuff and would make a great book or doco, there is a story to be told.

Peter

Hi Peter,

I agree. I was planning on writing a bit about Albert in a section of the book I am working on which chronicles the career of the TSS California (through the eyes of those who sailed on her), but there is probably a bigger book to be written here. I do not know if I am the one to write it, but certainly it is a tale in need of telling!

Thanks,

-Daniel

[ph0ebus]

Hi Peter,

I cannot remember if I asked you this, but do you have (or are you planning on getting) a copy of AEB's death certificate?

-Daniel

[Guest]

Daniel

I wasn't planing on getting his death certificate as I don't think it would add to what we know. I have learn't not to take everything in a death certificate as fact as it depends on who the informant was and how well they knew the deceased. I have had to fill out the forms for an Uncle of mine through marriage and I knew very little about him except that the birth date for him was wrong but I did not know the correct date and that he came from Ireland. I was told to leave the date given stand as it would stuff up pension payments etc and if I wanted to, change it at a later date.

Peter

[ph0ebus]

Hi Peter,

I understand your reservations...sadly, in many circumstances, the certificate is the best source of info we have.

Another new thread in the Ships and Navies subforum helps to shed some more light on just what AEB was worried about on his trip aboard the TSS California, and why he felt the need to travel incognito while on a munitions purchasing mission for the Admiralty. Have a look at this:

http://www.oldandsold.com/articles26/world-war-one-15.shtml

The original thread can be read here, with a photo of the type of chap Albert was seeking to dodge.

 

Interestingly enough, the photo was taken from the Sheffield Daily Independent!

-Daniel

[phil@basildon]

Daniel, I have read a lot of this in Diana Prestons book 'Wilful Murder' about the sinking of the 'Lusitania'. The US interned German merchant vessels in their ports at the beginning of the war and the crews of these vessels were recruited as agents by the German secret service. It even went as far as manufacturing incendary devices on board some of these vessels!

[ph0ebus]

Daniel, I have read a lot of this in Diana Prestons book 'Wilful Murder' about the sinking of the 'Lusitania'. The US interned German merchant vessels in their ports at the beginning of the war and the crews of these vessels were recruited as agents by the German secret service. It even went as far as manufacturing incendary devices on board some of these vessels!

Hi Phil, all...

Indeed, I have, since this last post, been looking into the acts of German sabotage occurring in the US, with a focus on the saboteurs' activity in NYC ports. They were busy bees! There are some other threads in this subforum that get into it a bit (i.e., German Bombs on the Lusitania, etc.).

I have just been contacted by another member of the Bell family (a grandson of AEB...thanks for the heads up Dean!) presently living in Canada; I have suggested he join the conversation here and we are just beginning to trade information. The latest re: my research is the location and purchase of an original German newspaper circa March 1917 that describes the career of Kplt. Petz, the man who sank the California. I expect the paper in the mail shortly.

Have had precious little time to get back to NYPL to read up on Shell Inspecting....still on my to do list.

-Daniel

[phil@basildon]

Peter, Daniel, I am now getting prepared for my visit to Ypres to watch the ceremony at the Menin Gate on the 11th. I will be taking a camera and I hope to be able to post some phtographs when I return.

[phil@basildon]

Just a little bit more, it may be possible for me to visit John's grave, it all depends on if there is enough time. The cemetary is quite near Ypres and it might be possible.

[ph0ebus]

Just a little bit more, it may be possible for me to visit John's grave, it all depends on if there is enough time. The cemetary is quite near Ypres and it might be possible.

Phil,

I hope you have a wonderful trip, and may the weather gods smile upon you!

I am neck-deep in translating (from German) the service record information I just got from WASt on Willy Petz, the man in command of U-85 who sank the California. Not easy, but moving along.

-Daniel

[ph0ebus]

Phil,

I hope you have a wonderful trip, and may the weather gods smile upon you!

I am neck-deep in translating (from German) the service record information I just got from WASt on Willy Petz, the man in command of U-85 who sank the California. Not easy, but moving along.

-Daniel

Hi Phil, all...

I hope you had a nice trip. Any pics to share?

EDIT:

A forum pal (Tim L.) has found out where and how John Richard Bell died:

Daniel,

The 1st Australian Pioneer Battalion was stationed at Godezonne Farm during March 1918 which is in the Ypres Sector just SW of Voormezeele (there's a CWGC named after the farm at that location).

The Battalion was sending it's companies up to the front lines from Godezonne Farm, digging and repairing trenches, MG pits, shelters, etc. During March they had 2 killed and 65 wounded performing these duties and no doubt BELL is counted among these. He was wounded in the abdomen, head and knee by shellfire on the 29th March and was taken to the 1st Australian Field Ambulance where he died the same day.

For a more detailed explanantion of their work throughout March have a look at the 1st Aust. Pioneer Bn's War Diary here:

http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/AWM4/14/AWM4-14-13-25.pdf

-Daniel

[phil@basildon]

Yes Daniel I had a great time, unfortunately I did not have a camera with me and I was unable to visit La Clytte anyway but I left the cross I had prepared at the Menin gate.

Until you visit the battlefields and the cemeterys in the area you cannot envisage the scale of the slaughter.

As it was an organised coach trip I had to follow the itinery laid down, we visited Essex farm cemetary then on to the German cemetery at Langemark then finally to Tyne Cot which is truly enormous. The thing that struck me the most was the number of graves marked as unknown, in Langemark in particular.

We then went in to Ypres were I was able to have a late lunch at an excellent resturant recomended by others on this forum, Sante', were I had the best coffee I have tasted for years.

The Last Post ceremony was very moving but somewhat crowded as you might expect on November 11th. A long day but I hope to go back next year.

[deano]

Just bringing this one back up with another small mystery !!

In the same cemetery where A.E.Bell is buried (Crookes) there is a headstone for a John Bell.

This is what happened to him -

'JOHN BELL, ADMIRALTY INSPECTOR KILLED.

A fatal accident occured at Cammell Laird and Co Ltd, Penistone on 16 June 1915. Mr John Bell, an Admiralty inspector was engaged in the inspection of shell material. While passing down the Rail Mill a small bogie came along with an ingot in it. The driver rang his bell but Mr Bell was not able to get out of the way and was knocked down and shockingly mutilated. Doctors were quickly on the scene and the Sheffield Motor Ambulance was sent for but death intervened. Mr Bell had only been visiting Penistone for a short while, having taken the place of an inspector who had gone to America'.

this is from 'it comes to us all' - a portrait of Crookes Cemetery by Julie Stone.

Was John A.E's father ? More questions !!

Dean.

[phil@basildon]

Very interesting, but I think if he was related we would have discovered it. As you are probably aware contact was made with the decendants of A.E. and they would have said so if it was their family.

Having said that it is an interesting item, could you possibly find out more information? There would have been an inquest and probably a news report(s). If you can contact Julie Stone and find the source of the information it would help.

[ph0ebus]

Very interesting, but I think if he was related we would have discovered it. As you are probably aware contact was made with the decendants of A.E. and they would have said so if it was their family.

Having said that it is an interesting item, could you possibly find out more information? There would have been an inquest and probably a news report(s). If you can contact Julie Stone and find the source of the information it would help.

Hi all,

Two things:

(1) I am quite pleased to see this thread moved to Classic Threads.

(2) I will email the various members of the Bell family to see if they know who this chap might be.

As an aside, I just got a packet from NARA of Official Correspondance relating to the Foreign Relations of the United States, all relating to the torpedo attack on the California. Per one telegram sent by Wesley Frost immediately after the sinking, the California was heavily leaden with munitions when sunk. This corroborates other documents I have that say the same, so it appears she was a bona fide target at the time of the attack. Makes me all the more sad for the families who likely had no idea what lay beneath their feet when they came on board.

-Daniel

[deano]

Hi Phil, Dan,

i'm off to local studies later in the week, i'll have a look.

Dean.

[ph0ebus]

Hi all,

FYI, there is a lovely postally used postcard of the California for sale on eBay:

You can see the listing here:

TSS California

I would go for it but I have a postally unused version of this card already.

-Daniel

[Guest]

Hi Daniel and everyone

Good to see there is still some interest in this thread

AE Bell had a brother John born July 1866, so it could be him. We have no info on him other than his birth from St Phillips church baptism records. Their father was John Swinden Bell but he died in 9/1/1912 so he is not the one.

regards Peter

[Guest]

Hi All

regarding the post card on Ebay, Daniel as you already have a mint copy the owner may give you a copy of the reverse side, may help in you quest.

Strange that the post date is 2 years after rhe ship was sunk

Regards Peter

[ph0ebus]

Hi Daniel and everyone

Good to see there is still some interest in this thread

AE Bell had a brother John born July 1866, so it could be him. We have no info on him other than his birth from St Phillips church baptism records. Their father was John Swinden Bell but he died in 9/1/1912 so he is not the one.

regards Peter

Interesting! I wonder if we can get the details on the headstone to see if the birthdates line up? Dean, where did you get the info re: the other Bell grave at Crookes?

I remembered I had been given a photo of another Bell headstone in Crookes, but it is not this grave; it is of Walter George Bell, Alice Bell and Martin Bell.

-Daniel

[ph0ebus]

Hi All

regarding the post card on Ebay, Daniel as you already have a mint copy the owner may give you a copy of the reverse side, may help in you quest.

Strange that the post date is 2 years after rhe ship was sunk

Regards Peter

Hi Peter,

Actually, the card was posted pretty early in her career. She was launched in 1907 but was not sunk until 1917. I emailed the seller about the reverse...as sometimes you get little surprises this way (like I did with AE Bell's card!).

I might add the prices being asked for the 1911 Saloon Passenger List (Item number: 270355780769) and the book 'History of the Anchor Line' circa 1911 (Item number: 360143392184) are postively mad.

-Daniel