Transatlantic Spies?

[Guest]

Daniel received your mail OK thanks very much

Will scan the newspaper article again and repost seperate pics of Reg & George in Uniform

Phil

Have just contacted a relative in Sheffield of A E Bell Snr's brother William Henry Bell (1859), he had a son named A E Bell born 1887 who in turn had a son A E Edgar Bell born 1915. A very popular name. A E bell (1887) worked for Firth Browns , two seperate firms that amalgamated between the wars, Mark Firth and John Brown were very big industrialists and produced armaments. A E E Bell (1915) also worked for this firm and produced airplane propellors during WW2, A E Bell (1887) was in the same plant, Today the firm is part of Sheffield Forgemasters. I Know our A E Bell Jnr (1893) also worked for Firths, maybe AE Bell Snr (1871) also worked for them as they seem to run in the family

[ph0ebus]

Daniel received your mail OK thanks very much

Will scan the newspaper article again and repost seperate pics of Reg & George in Uniform

Phil

Have just contacted a relative in Sheffield of A E Bell Snr's brother William Henry Bell (1859), he had a son named A E Bell born 1887 who in turn had a son A E Edgar Bell born 1915. A very popular name. A E bell (1887) worked for Firth Browns , two seperate firms that amalgamated between the wars, Mark Firth and John Brown were very big industrialists and produced armaments. A E E Bell (1915) also worked for this firm and produced airplane propellors during WW2, A E Bell (1887) was in the same plant, Today the firm is part of Sheffield Forgemasters. I Know our A E Bell Jnr (1893) also worked for Firths, maybe AE Bell Snr (1871) also worked for them as they seem to run in the family

Hi Peter, all.

Glad the test email came through allright. Will send more along now. The above info is great! Contacting Sheffield Forgemasters in now on my 'to do' list.

As I hoped both books are available at NYPL's Research Division. Looks like it is time for another trip over there!

-Daniel

[Guest]

Here are the pics

[Guest]

oops heres the other one

[ph0ebus]

Fantastic.

Peter, I just filled your in-box.

As an aside, I am working my way through this thread and adding the new info to my summary of facts, which I will post once complete.

-Daniel

[ph0ebus]

Here is a pic of Reg & George from a newspaper clip in 1982

Still searching for Regs military info

Hi Peter,

Can you tell me what newspaper this article is from? I would be interested the name of the paper, date of publication, and page number the article appeared on if you have it.

Thanks,

-Daniel

[phil@basildon]

Peter, Was Reginald married and did he have any children? RAF records of airmen are not easy to access unless you are a near relative. I am trying to find out what Squadron(s) he flew with, the Squadron diaries should have some information. From what you have said it appears that he was shot down twice during WW2, if you could give me some sort of timescale when these incidents occured I may be able to identify some details as aircraft losses records are available. (For example if he was shot down just before D-Day on a supply mission I can look up transport aircraft lost over France at that time.) I can then from the loss information for that aircraft which should have pilots name, rank and even number of flying hours find details of his flying career. It may be possible that his Pilot's Log Book has survived, this would make extreamly interesting reading.

[Guest]

Daniel

I dont have the paper info but may be able to get close. Will check it out.

Phil

He was not shot down when delivering fuel behind enemy lines, they landed and unloaded drums of fuel which was buried / hidden by the resistance so the advancing army did not have to rely on fuel following from behind. He was shot down in early 1945 over the English Channell and spent about 8 or 9 months in hospital till the end of the war ( I Think).

He was married and his wife died in the early sixties that is why he moved to Africa to be with his son. Sorry I don't know their names but will ask.

[ph0ebus]

Hi all,

Appears there was a little controversey going on in regards to the training of shell inspectors in Sheffield in 1916:

SHELL INSPECTORS.HC Deb 02 August 1916 vol 85 cc325-6W 325W

§ Mr. SNOWDEN asked the Minister of Munitions whether his attention has been called to a statement made by Sir William Clegg at the Sheffield Munitions Court recently that one of his gardeners, who had never seen a shell and had lived in a village all his life, went straight away and got an appointment as a shell inspector; and if he will state what are the grounds for appointing inspectors in this way?

§ Dr. ADDISON There seems to be a good deal of misunderstanding regarding the denominations of "inspector" and "examiner," it would perhaps be well if a fairly full explanation was given. The staff of the Inspection Department is roughly divided into inspectors and assistant-inspectors in the superior grades and four classes of examiners in the subordinate ones. The subordinate grades might be again sub-divided into upper and lower subordinate, the examiners 1st and 2nd class being in the former, and the 3rd and 4th class and labourers being in the latter grade. Inspectors are made from assistant-inspectors after qualified and good service. Assistant-inspectors are all (with very few exceptions for special work) engineers with good and long experience, and are only appointed after being seen personally, their qualifications very fully considered and their references carefully taken up. The upper subordinates, or 1st and 2nd class examiners, are all skilled mechanics, who are interviewed and their qualification and references looked into. These men pass through a practical test before being engaged; if a man cannot pass the test he is not engaged in either of these two classes. The lower subordinates, or 3rd or 4th class examiners, are all engaged from the Labour Exchanges, and unless they show some knowledge of mechanics' work are started as labourers at 31s. per week of forty-eight hours. This labour may be taken as unskilled when started. After having received some training they are examined, and if considered suitable are turned into 4th class examiners at 34s. per week, and eventually, after further training, if found suitable become 3rd class examiners at 38s. per week. A large number of 4th class examiners are women. From this it will be seen that even though a man be a gardener or anything else there is no good reason why, after training, he should not do exceedingly useful and good work, much of which is practically repetition work, more especially when carefully supervised.

This is taken from:

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written...hell-inspectors

I am now digging around for more on the Sheffield Munitions Court.

EDIT:

Have a look at this:

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons...ry-of-munitions

Too long to reprint here perhaps, but very, very interesting reading.

-Daniel

[phil@basildon]

First of all apologies for going a bit off topic (WW2) but this concerns matters discussed on this thread.

Peter, I have found out some information reguarding Reginald Bell's RAF career, but only the WW2 part.

From what you have told me he was probably flying for 161 SD Squadron, the SD standing for special duties. This was the Squadron that landed and recovered agents in France and also provided supplies to the resistance. The operation taking fuel supplies to France was almost certainly part of operation FORTITUDE, that was intended to deceive the Germans into thinking that the invasion would take place in and around Calais. The aircraft would probably have been a Lockheed Hudson. The following website will have more information.

http://tempsford.20m.com/home.html

I have not been able to find any records of his early RAF career but it seems likely that the Armistice came before he was able to see any action.

Daniel, The reports about the Shell Inspectors was very interesting. Perhaps it could be added to the thread on defective shells or even start a new thread.

I wonder what 'rank' of shell inspector AEB was? It would probably have been the most senior (inspector).

[ph0ebus]

Daniel, The reports about the Shell Inspectors was very interesting. Perhaps it could be added to the thread on defective shells or even start a new thread.

I wonder what 'rank' of shell inspector AEB was? It would probably have been the most senior (inspector).

Hi Phil, all....

I am going to give the material another thorough once over and see what we can weave into this tapestry we are making. I will of course try to do the same with the other thread on defective shells. Right now my priority is sorting through all the material on this topic to create and post a summary of all we have learned so far. I am also cautiously optimistic I may get to NYPL on Tuesday to have a preliminary look at the two books I mentioned previously.

Without a more thorough grounding on the art of shell inspection, I would hazard a guess to say you are likely correct in your supposition that AEB was rated an inspector. We'll see if that bears out as we proceed.

Take care,

-Daniel

[Guest]

HI All

Daniel, found the info on the newspaper article

St George and Sutherland Shire Leader

Volume 23 Number 13

Wednesday 29th September 1982

Page 18

Seems like only yesterday when I met Reg not 27 years

Phil I think your right about Reg's WW1 records as he would have turned 18 and the end of 1918 when all the action was over, that is why he did not talk much about his exploits in WW1. If he did fly with 161 it would be really something, they would have had some scary times.

Back to AE Bell (1871) a few posts back he was listed as a shell inspector on a return journy

Arrived Liverpool 6th September 1916 on the Saxonia. Address 220 City Road Sheffield. Occupation Shell Inspector.

Am really getting a history lesson here

Peter

[ph0ebus]

Hi Peter,

Indeed, I am getting quite a lesson as well. Albert had a very important job, especially since it is well documented that American-made munitions were apparently pretty bad, and needed skilled men like him to seperate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

Thanks for the article citation, just want to be able to attruibute things properly.

Take care,

-Daniel

[phil@basildon]

Peter, I have been asked if Reginald left the RAF between the wars. He would probably have remained with the RAF after WW1 for a couple of years at least. He could possibly have served with a Volunteer Reserve squadron between the wars, to keep his piloting skills up to date. It is possible for you as a family member to obtain a copy of his service record, but at the moment a bit more detail would be advisable such as rank, if we knew whether he was an officer or an NCO would help. The bad news is that it would cost £30 plus the cost of postage to Australia.

I will try to visit the Tempsford museum to see if I can find anything out.

[ph0ebus]

Hi all,

As promised, here is a summary of the facts thus far. if I missed anything (which is likely, given howm much has been said in this thread!), let me know. Here we go:

Albert Edward Bell: Timeline

• Albert Edward Bell was born on April 3, 1871, and lived at 25 King Street, Sheffield, Yorkshire, England. Albert was the son of John George (Roll Turner – Steel) and Sarah Ann (nee Connell) Bell.

• Albert Edward Bell was christened September 14, 1871 at Saint Phillip, Sheffield, Yorkshire, England.

• In 1881, Albert is the youngest of 4 children, and is listed as having lived at 26 Ash Street, Nether Hallam, Sheffield, Yorkshire; his siblings were James, age 20, blacksmith; Arthur, age 17, warehouseman; John, age 15, hatter

• In 1881 (age 10) Census, Albert’s occupation listed as ‘scholar’

• In 1891 (age 20) Census, Albert’s occupation is listed as ‘Manufacturer’s Clerk’

• Albert married Lillian Blacktin in St. Bartholomew’s Church, Sheffield, Yorkshire on March 6, 1893.

• In 1901 (age 30) Census, Albert is married to Lillian (nee Blacktin) – Lillian’s date of birth: 8 Jul 1872 - Langsett Road, Sheffield. On this census, Albert and Lillian have five children: Albert Edward, age 7, born 4 September 1883; John Richard, age 7 (DOB 4 Sep 1894 in Sheffield, Yorkshire, England); George Ernest, age 5 (DOB 30 October 1895); Arthur William, age 2 (DOB 18 Sep 1898) and Reginald, age 4 months (DOB 8 Dec 1900) and a housemaid; living at 321 Springvale Road, and occupation is listed as ‘Commercial Traveler (Cutlery and Tools)’; this ties in with his friend George Legget who was in the cutlery trade as a "Little Mester".

• In 1911 Census, Albert has nine children, and address is 271 Western Road, Sheffield; according to White’s his occupation is ‘Commercial Traveler’. Children added since 1901 Census: Harold Stuart, Date of Birth: 13 Oct 1902; Lawrence Archibald, Date of Birth: 27 Aug 1904; Lilian Alberta May, Date of Birth: 1907 - Sheffield, Yorkshire, England; Maurice Colin Bell, Born 8 December 1908. In addition to Albert’s immediate family, Beatrice Buxton, servant, 15, Nursemaid, John Blacktin, Boarder, 67, Retired, Late manager saw factory, and Elizabeth Blacktin, Boarder, 64, married 46 years lived in the same home; John and Elizabeth Blacktin are Lillian Blacktin’s parents. Albert Jr. is listed as being employed as a ‘high speed drill turner’.

• Albert Edward Bell Jr. worked for Firth Stainless Steel in Sheffield as fitter and turner, then as a manager

• Two other children born to Albert and Lillian: Ronald Adolphus (Born 12 August 1916); Victor Graham (Born 19 March 1910)

• Lilian Alberta May Bell (called ‘my little lamb’ by Albert, LAMB being her initials) – Date of Death: 4 Sep 1911 - Sheffield, Yorkshire, England, age 4. She apparently fell or was dropped and sustained a blow to the head, and succumbed to meningitis shortly thereafter.

• Albert Edward Bell apparently traveled to the US and India for business, and spoke eight languages. He may have worked in a steel mill in Sheffield or

• During the Great War Reginald Bell joined the RAF (probably in 1917, or after April 1, 1918 when the RAF was created) and flew Sopwith Camels.

• On March 25, 1916 (age 44) Albert departed Liverpool for New York, traveling on the ‘California’ and listed his occupation as ‘Admiralty Skilled Labourer’. He traveled with Stephen Beckly, age 50; Fred R. Walker, age 41; Chas. Holdsworth, age 21; Ernest Richardson, age 47; Chas. Glassop, age 57. All gave occupation as ‘Admiralty Skilled Labourer’, traveled on ticket number 14450 and traveled 2nd class. All stated they were relocating to America, with an initial stop at the British Embassy

• On June 9, 1916, Albert returns to Liverpool on board the Cunard Liner Saxonia.

• In September 1916, Albert traveled on board the ‘Philadelphia’ from Liverpool to New York, in first class

• On November 3, 1916, Albert’s son John Richard (twin of Albert Edward Jr.) joins as a Private, 1st Battalion Pioneers, Australian Imperial Force.

• Albert’s son John Richard Bell was killed in the Great War on March 29, 1918 in Belgium. He was a Private, 1st Battalion Pioneers, Australian Imperial Force, listed on CWGC web site.

• On April 8, John Richard was awarded the 1914/1915 Star, the British War medal and the Victory Medal; these were sent to his father. In addition, his father was sent a memorial plaque and a memorial scroll, with a pamphlet entitled “Where the Australians Rest”.

• There is evidence that a 'falling out' occurred between Albert Sr. and George about the time of John's death, George changed his next of kin details to his mother soon after. There may also have been a falling out between Albert Sr. and Albert Jr.; per family, when they went to visit the grandparents Albert Sr. would go to the club across the Rd instead of spending time with Albert Jr.

• On May 15, 1918, Albert signs for his son John Richard’s personal effects.

• In 1925 Albert’s occupation is ‘Traveler’, and his address is 123 Shiregreen Lane, Shire Green as per Kelly’s

• In 1928, Albert Edward Bell Jr. moved to Australia at invitation of George, who sponsored him. He traveled aboard the SS Bendigo; it broke a propeller shaft on the way and they transferred to the SS Balranald. Unfortunately a economic depression hit when they landed and he could not find work.

• Albert Edward Bell died at age 69 on March 22nd, 1941, and was buried in Crookes Cemetery, Sheffield, England. He is interred in the family plot with his wife Lillian, and his daughter Lilian, in grave 2950, Section DD. At the time of his death, his address was listed as 105 Tadcaster Road, Sheffield.

• During WWII, Reginald Bell flew bombers and transports, though in a newspaper account, he was reported to have flown Spitfires and Mosquitos. Reginald once told family that one time in WWII he flew into enemy territory at night to hide petrol supplies for the advancing army before D-Day; he was surprised by some German soldiers and had to hide in the bushes; they passed within a few feet from him but he was not discovered. He was shot down about 9 months before the end of the war and spent about 24 hours in a life raft before being picked up and spent the rest of the war in hospital and never flew again

• Albert Edward Bell Jr. served in WWII but was Medically Discharged for hearing loss.

• As of 1951 (per Kelly’s), Lillian Blacktin Bell was still living at 105 Tadcaster Road, Sheffield.

• Reginald Bell moved to South Africa in 1960

• Arthur William Bell died in Sheffield Jan 1964

• At the time of her death on June 19, 1965, Lillian Blacktin Bell lived at 124 Tadcaster Road, Sheffield. Ronald Bell was listed in Kelly’s as living at this address as well.

• Albert Edward Bell Jr. died in Australia on 12 July 1969

• Maurice Collin Bell died in Keighley, North York in July 1978

• Lawrence Archibald Bell died in Sheffield on 25 September 1986

• George Ernest Bell died in Australia on 21 December 1993

• Reginald Bell died in Australia ______?

-Daniel

[phil@basildon]

Daniel, It appears that we had the wrong Bell family for the 1881/1891 censuses. The names do not tie in with what Peter has told us. Reginald returned to South Africa after his visit to Australia, he was still alive in 1992 and living in SA (George's obit.) I am still looking into Reginalds RAF career, I have PM'd Peter with details as it was not GW but to put it briefly I have identified the probable squadron that he flew with (161) and someone has very kindly offered to check the squadron diary for me. Suffice to say that Reginald's WW2 exploits sound really interesting. I will now go back and check those census returns and see if I can find the right Bell family.

[phil@basildon]

Daniel, I have re-checked the censuses, we did have the correct family. AE's elder brother had left home by 1881 and therefore was on another census return. The names of the parents tie up with previouse censuses. The Albert E. Bell in the 1950's telephone directory was probably his nephew or great nephew.

[ph0ebus]

Hi Phil,

Glad to hear it matches up OK. I struck out with getting to NYPL today; my 2:00 meeting got moved back an hour and thus not only did not get to the library but got no lunch to boot.

In looking around in their website, I found a few other books about the Ministry of Munitions and shell inspectors I may add to my reading list.

Take care,

-Daniel

[phil@basildon]

Peter, I have found a little bit more about Reginald's WW2 history, will send PM.

[ph0ebus]

Phil,

I hope you will keep me in the loop as well!

As an aside, I just hit the genealogical mother lode, so I may be a bit side-tracked sorting out what I just got. For those who may have also read my posts in the Soldiers and Units and Formations Forum about my grandfather Emanuel, I just found some of his cousins' descendants in Israel. Hooray!

-Daniel

[phil@basildon]

Daniel, I have PM'd the details to you as it is WW2 and off topic.

[ph0ebus]

Hi Phil,

Thanks....got it! I may get another chance at NYPL and the shell inspection/ministry of munitions books on Thursday, if the stars align. Here's hoping.

-Daniel

[phil@basildon]

Daniel, Peter, This morning I popped down to the WW1 airfield at Stow Maries to watch the arrival of the first Sopwith Camel to fly in to the airfield for 90 years. Regretably I forgot my camera! There were plenty of cameras there however and some photos are bound to appear on this forum. TV cameras were also there, as soon as the news items are available on line I will let you know.

[phil@basildon]

You can see the aircraft on http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8115137.stm

[ph0ebus]

Phil,

Thanks for the link...what a ride! And that landing looked like a real tooth-rattler. Does anyone recall what planes were used in either the silent film 'Wings' or in the more recent pic 'Flyboys'?

I need to do a little digging...

-Dan