Camps behind the lines

[Doug Johnson]

Several pals have asked about camps behind the lines so I though the following list may be useful. The names and descriptions are from Cd 9106 and Cd 8988 which are command papers probably prepared by the Committee on the Treatment of Prisoners of War.

Bray – 7km from the lines and under shell fire.

Cagnicourt – 1200 men. A cage, an open enclosure in a field. Later with two huts but only for 400.

Cambrai – Accommodation for 12 to a room. Sleeping on loose straw.

Canal du Nord – Dug-outs. About 400 prisoners

Cantin – 200 prisoners in a barn. Working in a pioneer park, loading ammunition etc.

Denain – Primarily a distribution station.

Douai – Shells fell between 200 and 300 yards from the camp.

Dury – 12km behind the lines.

Ecoust – Described as a cage. Corporal of the West Yorks killed just outside by shellfire.

E.K. 5 -

Ervillers - Noted as existing in Feb 1917.

Lecluse – Loading shells

Lille – 110 in a room 15 ft by 20 ft.

Marquion -

Moretz -

Provin – similar to Salomé

Prowy – 20km behind Cambrai. A disused sugar refinery. Around 1500 prisoners.

Sailly – A cage in the middle of a pioneer dump. Was shelled. Some 400 prisoners.

Salomé – A cage. About 2300 prisoners; some 1500 British. Later an old church used and also a hut for 250. situated some 600 yards behind the German lines

Sauchy-Cauchy – as Sauchy-Lestrée

Sauchy-Lestrée – Sleeping accommodation very crowded.

Villers - Described by one witness as a cage next to a large ammunition dump. Contained 1115 men. Was shelled and some inmates killed

Feel free to make additions.

Doug

[gordontaos]

Do we know anything more about the camp at Cambrai?

[Doug Johnson]

Gordon,

I know very little at the moment. There will be some reports describing the camp but I only have some extracts published in the command papers from where I put together the list. Large numbers of PoWs went through Cambrai, though many of the reports I have read went through the hospital there (since the reports are generally from returning PoWs who were wounded, hospitals tend to figure quite highly). The report extracts for the Cambrai camp do not have names attached, as is the case in later reports, so it is not possible to easily locate the full report and they give no clue as to the type of accommodation at Cambrai, only the conditions. As with Lille, we know that large numbers of PoWs were kept there for work and that these probably travelled out during the day.

Doug

[Ivor]

Doug,

Is there anyway that I could find out where abouts in Salomé the cage and hut were positioned? Also, would there be any photos of these anywhere? I know that these are long shots but thanks for your help and advice.

Regards,

Ivor

[Ivor Lee]

Doug

Is there any information on the units used as Escorts at these Camps?

Ivor

[Doug Johnson]

Ivor,

I have very little information on these "camps". They would have been a small selection of the hundreds of places used to house prisoners held behind the lines and there is unlikely to be records of them as they were "illegal". They were also not visited by neutral observers and the only information that I have comes from the prisoners themselves. Because some of them were very close to the lines they may have been known to British intelligence and therefore may have been marked on some maps. Some were close to munitions depots and were shelled as a consequence. I would have expected compounds and other such structures to have been recorded even if the use was unknown.

The only other possible source is local knowledge which may have been handed down, though the lines were clear of dangerous civilians at the time.

Doug

[Ivor]

Thanks Doug. I plan to go to Salome in 2010 so I'll have to ask around and see if I can find anything out.

All the best,

Ivor

[seaforths]

I was of a mind to start a similar thread on the same subject. I come across information on this topic from time to time and thought perhaps it would be good to record it on the forum. A search to make sure I'm not duplicating another thread brought me here. Therefore I'm adding information and I hope it will be of some use to those researching POWs. Hopefully, I will be returning over time to add dates to the locations. The second man in particular is challenging as he only gives infrequent dates and at other times says how long he was there and other comments like '... days later' so it will take a little longer to work these out for him. I realise that some of these locations duplicate locations that Doug has posted however I have left these in as it gives further confirmation that POWs were there or transiting through.



Below are the movements of a 6th Seaforth captured 11th April 1918 unwounded, while making a stand at a farmhouse along with 6th Gordon Hrs. Some of these movements were brief stays, or they were moved via these locations.

Busnes: France, near Bethune 9th April.
Salome: France near Busnes 11th April

Back to firing line as a reprisal 14th April to carry wounded back to Salome.

Salome: On the march for two days 27th and 28th April.
Aubers and Don: France, near Lille. 29th April to 9th May.

Carvin: France, near Lille. 10th to 16th May.

Sainghin: Sainghin-en-Weppes: France, near Lille.
Seclin: France, near Lille

Lille: France. 17th and 18th May.
*Orchies: France, between Lille and St. Amand-Les-Eaux. Spent only 3 hours at a camp here on 18th May.
Mouchin: France, near St. Amand. Orchies used for sick parades, baths, de-lousing also St Amand used for same.
Tournay -> Tournai: Belgium. Motored from Mouchin to Tornay for baths and de-lousing on 11th September.
Wasmes -> Wasmes-Audemez-Briffoeil: Belgium ( There is also a Wasmes close to Mons, but that is about 45 km aways ) moved here 15th October.
Ath: Belgium en route to...
Meuvesgnies -> Mauvinage: Belgium ( Not sure about this one, but it is in between other described locations like Ath, Enghien and Halle ) 16th - 24th October when moved again to Ath and put on a train...
Halle: Belgium. 24th October to 12th November.
Ath: transported here 13th November 1918.
* Orchies was being used for sick parades. Other men from other ‘camps’ were observed attending sick parade there, who were ‘in worse condition’.

My thanks to forum member Yannick for checking the spelling and locations with lightning speed and adding helpful comments. I have added some amendments. Despite being put through some sort of registration process mid-September, there is no camp record for him, only a repat record. Rail warrant issued from Dover to get him home dated 18 November 1918.

Below are the details of the movements of a man captured 28th March 1918, unwounded. He gave his details as 8th Bn. Seaforth Hrs. Why he did this, I do not know because he had an MGC service number which superseded his Seaforth number. He seems to have been with 44th Bde. and operating a machine gun until just prior to his capture. Again, some of these locations were brief stays as they continued to their next location.

Douai : France
Denain: France
Buissy: France
Villiers -> Villers-Les-Cagnicourt: France
Lille: France
Cambrai: France
Queant -> Quéant : France
Vaulx -> Vaulx-Vraucourt: France
Auberivny -> Aubigny-au-bac (?)
St. Armand -> Saint-Amand-Les-Eaux, France
Millonfosse: correctly spelled, as written by the soldier, not that far from Saint-Amand
Condre -> Condé-Sur-L'Escaut: France
Masney st Pierre -> Masnuy-Saint-Pierre: Belgium
Ecaussies -> Ecaussines: Belgium
Nivelles: Belgium
Namur: Belgium
Perivez -> Perwez: Belgium
Hannut: Belgium

He states they had their ‘particulars taken’ at Denain around 2nd April. The ICRC records show he was registered at Friedrichsfeld which in turn shows him to have previously been at Parchim. In fact, by his own account and as can be seen from the locations he gives, he never reached Germany. His repat record shows he arrived at Hull 22nd November 1918 and was admitted to Fulham Military Hospital on 3rd December 1918.

My thanks again to forum pal Yannick for a speedy check on the spellings and comments on locations.

[Doug Johnson]

From Cmd1450 'German War Trials - Report of Proceedings before the Supreme court in Leipzig'

'Captain Emil Muller was in charge of the Prisoner of War Camp at Flavy-le-Martel on the Western Front at the end of April and beginning of May, 1918. The camp had been used by the British as a Clearing Station, but was used as a Working Camp by the Germans during the rapid advance in March and April 1918. While it was in the occupation of the Germans, the conditions of the camp were indescribably bad. Into sheds capable of accommodating at the utmost 450 men over 1000 men were crowded. The sanitary and washing arrangements were so primative as to be practically non-existant.'

This is part of a report of the trial of Muller who was found guilty of mistreating PoWs at the camp including acts of personal violence and of sending out men to work who were unfit to do so. He was sentenced to six months imprisonment.

[seaforths]

A few more locations to add from Hedley's thread here: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=228764

Most locations from FO 383 file except Grande Carriere from Chris on that thread.

Grande Carriere

Termonde

Mons

Genappes

Tournai

Peruwelz

Beaudour

Liege (hospital)

Hal (hospital)

Bon Secours, near Peruwelz

Marchiennes

Denain

Evere (aerodrome near Brussels)

Courtrai

Antwerp

I'm guessing that Peruwelz is the Anglicised spelling used at that time for Perwez. Some of the above are duplicated places from previous posts. Pity there isn't a map big enough to plot all of these locations onto. I was looking for one to plot the movement of my two Seaforth men from previous two posts but couldn't find anything that gave that coverage of distance that included the detail of the locations.

Edit: missed off two locations and now added them.

[chrrip]

Mortagne EK3 1917

St Saulve EK3 10.17

Le Hamage EK3

Nomain - Delmez EK3

Néchin EK3

Quartes EK3

Conde EK3

another 209 British prisoners at Denain at this time

Camphin EK4

Wez - Welvain EK4

Hollain EK4

Marquin

Orcq

Tournai

Quevaucamps all EK5

St Armand

Orchies

La Tombe

Pecq

Deuze all FK14 Nov 17

German inspection reports quoted in Heather Jones' book

[seaforths]

On 07/07/2015 at 18:34, erniecrisp said:

Mortagne EK3 1917

St Saulve EK3 10.17

Le Hamage EK3

Nomain - Delmez EK3

Néchin EK3

Quartes EK3

Conde EK3

another 209 British prisoners at Denain at this time

Camphin EK4

Wez - Welvain EK4

Hollain EK4

Marquin

Orcq

Tournai

Quevaucamps all EK5

St Armand

Orchies

La Tombe

Pecq

Deuze all FK14 Nov 17

German inspection reports quoted in Heather Jones' book

Chris, if you are still seeking evidence or more evidence that Stendal was used to register POWs kept at the front, this will be worth a look:

 

I have long known from POW accounts that Stendal was used in this capacity. However, this is the first time I have seen the Germans themselves make reference to a camp being used for POWs kept at the front.

[chrrip]

I have now found references on Stendal to westliche etappe and come across some for Dulmen too; nearly 3000 prisoners on one Friedrichsfeld register!

[seaforths]

In addition to Stendal, Limburg, Parchim and Friedrichsfeld being used as 'dummy' addresses for prisoners, I found the following today, on Gustrow in FO Files:

[Doug Johnson]

The term EK refers to English Kommando. Presumably FK refers to French Kommando (or at least the German equivalent). These Kommandos appear to consist of PoWs that have been in Germany and have been shipped back to occupied territories. There is a report from one prisoner who had been at Friedrichsfeld and was shipped back to somewhere near Brussels to one of the EKs who reported that there was another camp near to them that held recently taken prisoners who had been held behind the lines. The two types of PoW were kept separate, the EK prisoners were well treated and fed but the others were in a terrible state.

Doug

[Doug Johnson]

From 'Between two fires' by Antoinette Tierce there is a short chapter by George Tyte, RND. After capture he was taken to the Citadel at Cambrai (which seems to explain where the camp at Cambrai was) and then he went with a party of eighty to Croisilles where they were set to work in two woods.

Doug

[seaforths]

The term EK refers to English Kommando. Presumably FK refers to French Kommando (or at least the German equivalent). These Kommandos appear to consist of PoWs that have been in Germany and have been shipped back to occupied territories. There is a report from one prisoner who had been at Friedrichsfeld and was shipped back to somewhere near Brussels to one of the EKs who reported that there was another camp near to them that held recently taken prisoners who had been held behind the lines. The two types of PoW were kept separate, the EK prisoners were well treated and fed but the others were in a terrible state.

Doug

I have been looking through some of the statements today regarding the prisoners being returned to camps in Germany from which they were sent. Yes, Friedrichsfeld, also Stendal, Dulmen and another. I'm not on a PC just now but the other camp is not one that often comes up in POW research. I will check it again later when I can get to the information. The ones that were sent from Germany back to France/Belgium and then back to Germany again were in a terrible state and it is quite clear now, from what I've seen today, that the sudden increase in the death rates at these camps is directly attributable to the treatment of those prisoners. The prisoners sent from Germany back to the Western Front were kept there for around 12 months.

I have also been reading extracts on POWs that were retained after capture in 1916 for around 10-12 months before being sent to German camps. It would seem that registering prisoners with camps in Germany but keeping them at the front was not confined to those prisoners captured in the spring offensive of 1918. On the contrary, it had been going on for some time although, it was the same camp addresses that were used (Stendal, Friedrichsfeld et. al.)

Edit: The other camp named whereby prisoners were returned from Western Front was Heestenmoor

[Doug Johnson]

Seaforths,

The original list at the beginning of this topic was collated from two Command Papers, one regarding those prisoners held behind the lines from the spring offensives in 1918 and the other regarding prisoners held behind the lines who were taken prior to the spring offensives. The reports state that there appeared to be a distinct difference between their treatment. However, there appears to be little difference in their treatment. The only difference between those working behind the lines ~(as opposed to those held behind the lines) seem to relate to those in the EKs who were sent back from Germany and were in receipt of parcels etc who were kept entirely separate from the newly captured even when in the same camp as this note refers;

Conde-sur-L’escaut– Mentioned by Whiting in “Getaway” as an old barracks. Part fenced off for prisoners taken the previous November who were in receipt of parcels etc. Some 90 British prisoners buried in the local cemetery who died in German hands between June 1917 and October 1918.

Doug

[seaforths]

Thanks Doug,

I'll go back and have a look at those two papers. The FO files I'm dealing with are, I think, an accummulation of evidence to produce those papers. What they seem to be proving is:

1. The Germans themselves, were abusing prisoners well before they threatened reprisals and were using them close to the firing lines as were the British and the French.

2. That the Germans did not withdraw the men they had sent from Germany when they said they did, and continued to use them within the 30km zone.

3. They continued to retain, use and abuse prisoners in the danger zones after they had signed agreements to the contrary.

I don't know if they were accummulating all of this because of the reluctance of C.Ridder van Rappard to accept British POW statements as the truth and he felt they exaggerated. He issued an apology in September 1918, which is on file. He also stated that he could only relate back to the British what the Germans were telling him. If they said the prisoners had been withdrawn and were not being abused then that was all that was available to him. However, the fact that Germany refused to allow neutral inspections of these camps should have spoken volumes to him.

I can see that the British had just about reached the end of their tether and 'despaired' over the conditions the prisoners were exposed to whether they were inside the 30km zone or outside of it - they knew they were being kept in the most appalling conditions. They had reached a point where they wanted to go public to the press with the abuse and atrocities and demand of Germany, that all prisoners be removed from France and Belgium (which would have been a bit difficult for the French and Belgians with regard to German prisoners). As it transpired, it reached the British press anyway. Whether that was deliberately leaked or via repatriated POWs speaking to the press or both, I don't know.

Edit: typo corrected

[seaforths]

Further to Gustrow, see attached image dtd 22 October 1918:

As you can see, Schneidmuhl is also mentioned and I will of course post if anything comes up to confirm that camp was also used.

Meanwhile on locations of camps behind the lines, FO received correspondence from the French had a prisoner that escaped from this location and they asked to investigate further on its existence; a camp called Ramousies, near Avesnes sur Helpe (Nord)

[seaforths]

Two locations at which prisoners were reported to be in dire conditions; Ramousies and Charleville. I don't think I've come across them before now. Certainly, the FO seemed unaware of their existence until informed quite late on (September-October 1918). They tried to rush some aid to them. These locations could have been used to keep prisoners in the German retreat, I'm not sure and as I said, not come across them in the past.

[lolponty@aol.com]

Please can anyone tell me anything about Bohain, this place is given on the ICRC records as a previous place of detention for the person I'm researching, could this be another behind the lines camp? His other records show he was held at Stendal, which then says held behind the lines at the end of the listing. He was also held at Dulmen and Munster 1, all in 1918. My knowledge of war records is limited so please excuse me if I lack understanding in this topic.

Many thanks,

Lorraine

[charlie2]

It's the first time I have come across a record (a list of deaths) bearing a typed in title "report from echelon" - submitted to the ICRC from Limburg. The person I was looking at is Pte Jones.

http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/2191943/1872/20457/

The record submitted by the Central Records Office states that he died in the PoW camp at Honnecourt.

http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/2191943/1872/20968/

Charlie

[seaforths]

Thanks for the notice on that one Charlie, I notice that a couple of entries above him is a man shown as at Charleville (my post #21) and so indicates that they were being kept there before 1918.

[seaforths]

Charlie - tried to send you a snippet on Honnecourt but email keeps saying no. In fact, my email has been playing silly b*ggers for a few days now.

However, here's another and I think he means Ronssoy? He was there for maybe a month or two bouncing back and forth between there and Cambrai: