Steve G Posted 29 March , 2009 Share Posted 29 March , 2009 I'm sitting here, watching my " The Great War " boxed set. Disc 3. " Hell Cannot Be So Terrible ". The section headed 'Paris'. (Sorry I can't give a timer reading. I'm unfamiliar with this PS2 I'm playing it on ) Lloyd George makes a speech. There's a clip of a chap taking a grenade from a dead mans hand and throwing the grenade. Then there's a brief clip of German troops running up a steep incline. Rewind! Watch again. Pause ..... Yep; Dogs! At least two guys there have Dogs, on leads, scampering along with them! Ok, now I'm very interested in Dogs. Sadly, I'm also useless with these weird controls. I don't know how to slow motion this clip so I can get a better look. I'm guessing they'd be Rottweiler's though? What was that all about? Trench clearance? Can anyone enlarge on this, please? Obviously, I've read about the Sentry and Patrol Dogs used in Viet Nam and such. But these Dogs appeared to be going into combat very much more like the role of War Dogs of antient times; Directly and deliberately to bite people. I never knew that was done in the Great War Any leads to worthwhile further reading most appreciated. Thanks! Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 29 March , 2009 Share Posted 29 March , 2009 Hello Steve The British Army used dogs as messengers occasionally - they weren't all that successful as shelling tended to put them off, which didn't happen with pigeons. The Belgians also used dogs to pull small carts, which might carry a machine gun. The dogs in your clip were more likely to vbe officers' pets, I think, but perhaps someone who knows the German Army better than I do will have more information. An armed man in a trench would not be frightened of a dog on a lead, and its handler would find it more difficult to use his own weapon. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve G Posted 29 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 29 March , 2009 Ron; I've seen a photo of the cart pulling Dogs. I've also read a lot about the shell dodgers. I've no idea what a "VBE Officer " might have been. But, from memory of the couple of replays I managed of this tantalisingly short clip? I'd swear the men holding the Dogs looked much the same as those around them. And it looked like no situation to be hauling a pet around either. No. I definately got the impression these guys were in the thick of it - who wasn't, at Verdun? - and these Dogs didn't look 'along for the ride'. Now, whilst I realise that not Every scene shown on this series necessarily fits exactly into what it's supposed to portray. And that there are 're enacted' bits; This clip looked pretty 'for real' to me. And I can't see anyone deciding to re run a scene with Dogs suddenly included anyway. I think I might have unearthed something of great interest to myself here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 29 March , 2009 Share Posted 29 March , 2009 The French, Belgian and German armies had units with MG carts pulled by dogs (one of the German units was naval). At least one British volunteer unit just pre war also used a dog pulled mg cart. and Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 29 March , 2009 Share Posted 29 March , 2009 British dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matchless Posted 29 March , 2009 Share Posted 29 March , 2009 I have no idea where i got this from and have no info other than the caption on the cutting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 29 March , 2009 Share Posted 29 March , 2009 I probably have read on average two hours a day of German material on WW I, in German, official histories, unit histories (generally written after the war by one or more of the officers), memoirs, very little secondary material, for the last 7-8 years, and I can't recall having ever read about this in the German Army. Also heard a lot of oral history from my father. Early in the war there were a good number of German "art cards" (drawn or painted, not photographic post cards) with a theme of a dog finding a wounded man and attracting the medics, but not attack dogs. And I think that the Germans had messager dogs. One factor might be that in close fighting, shots, grenades, a big, excited dog might only be marginally more likely to bit the other guys, not the comrades of the attacking handler. My father did tell me of a time (not in WW I) where a guy with a big dog attacked him; my father punched the guy down, and the dog pounced and bit his owner, not my father. I think that dog in close-up trench fighting would be very un-predictable. Bob Lembke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve G Posted 30 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2009 Thanks for some brilliant pictures, chaps! Some mouth watering Dogs there! (Remember, of course; These are Hundred Year Old Dogs. Born and bred before the KC's deciples got round to wrecking half the types out there). Oh, blow! Now I can't see the photo's as I write this. But, from memory; The red and white Dogs look to be St Bernards. How ironic that they're not muzzled, while all the others are. Those earlier Saint's were notoriously treacherous so and so's. That's why they stopped using them in SAR. Couldn't be trusted with who they found first! The big, white ones? Could they be Great Danes? They certainly look more like what that breed was once about, don't they? Can't imagine what else they would be, and they look two of a type. The Boxers I can still see. And I can see they have 'muzzles' too. Not leather ones. Natural ones. Faces aren't all shunted up. Bob Lembke; I tend to agree with ye ideas, plus some. A Dog that hasn't been very carefully and properly tested and trained to fight a man is quite likely to leave his handler rather embarressed, putting it mildly. And that's without shells and guns going off all around. Things of that nature, in the real world, seldom enough match the fantasys of film or arm chair. But, that brings me back to what I saw tonight, from my own chair; I'm a sure as eggs my eyes didn't decieve me. I'm sure that original, grainy, black and white glimpse of footage showed German troops, charging into battle ..... with medium / large, dark, blocky built Dogs, on leads, pulling ahead of them. If anyone reading this has the BBC set ~ and knows how to control their viewing system ~ I'd be most grateful if they'd care to slow down or freeze that scene and see what they can make of it. I'll get that sorted out myself. But, it's liable to be next friday at the earliest before I can. This has really got my interest now. Giant Schnauzer and Bercheron (?) I've heard of being used as 'War Dogs'. I wonder? Perhaps the idea was to let them loose in sight of the enemy? Let them rush in ahead and cause a bit of a distraction? Seems an awful waste of a good Dog, but there we are ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 30 March , 2009 Share Posted 30 March , 2009 Probably messenger dogs being brought forward with an assaulting unit. However, also, there are few authentic photos and certainly film of attacking German troops there, due to the clumsiness of the gear and the danger of getting a good camera angle. (He best known one turns out to probably be a still from a post-war film.) Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve G Posted 30 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2009 Probably messenger dogs being brought forward with an assaulting unit. Ding!!! What a great bit of lateral thinking, Bob! I mean; No good getting ones self into a situation where by one wants to send a message back; Then thinking, " Oh. We have no Dogs or pigeons with us! ". So, yes, I guess it does make sense that someone had to fetch these things along. Sort of minutiae of logistic a light weight like me would never consider. Regards authenticity? I've been reading a lot of threads and stuff, round and about, lately. The article about the Lip Reader points out that a lot of the film footage wasn't 're enacted'. But, equally, I've been studying Official 'Take 2' photo's of certain actions. And the scene where the guy takes the grenade from the dead mans hand? Staged! But I still see no reason why anyone should decide to re stage a simple " Over The Top " scene, and feel throwing in a couple of Dogs would add authenticity. I reckon those Dogs really were there. And I reckon ye might well have hit on Why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 30 March , 2009 Share Posted 30 March , 2009 The French used medical dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 30 March , 2009 Share Posted 30 March , 2009 This may be of interest DOGS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve G Posted 30 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2009 Nice one, Centurion! I followed that up and, look; " Since then the use of dogs in the German army has assumed considerable proportions. The animals used are mostly of the German sheep-dog variety, and a register of these, numbering several thousands, is kept for mobilization purposes by the German Sheep-Dog Club. Other breeds used by the enemy are terriers, red-haired griffons, Doberman pinchers, Airedale terries, and a sort of bull-terrier known as a "Boxer." Dogs, it appears, have been used by the German army chiefly on the Eastern Front, where the fighting was of a more open description than on the Western Front. The German papers published appeals from the authorities asking dog owners to offer their pets for war purposes, and many thousands were obtained as a result. " Here. Now I really must try to find out more about what those Boxers were up to. Never come across that before. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 30 March , 2009 Share Posted 30 March , 2009 We are lucky enough to have a German Messenger dog as a forum member. He is a close associate of Egbert. He spent some time in sick bay not too long ago but is now recovered, I hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 30 March , 2009 Share Posted 30 March , 2009 The Germans definitely used dogs for carrying messages. I have never seen anything related to their use as offensive weapons, FWIIW. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 30 March , 2009 Share Posted 30 March , 2009 British army also used messenger dogs (as did the French and Begians) - see www.gwpda.org/photos/dog01.htm www.flickr.com/photos/nlscotland/2957940591/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 30 March , 2009 Share Posted 30 March , 2009 Another couple of British messenger dogs and handlers (what is that brasard/arm band? Another handler is also wearing one) http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlscotland/se...3892358/detail/ http://www.anluan.net/images/page4_137.jpg and a German messenger dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britman Posted 30 March , 2009 Share Posted 30 March , 2009 Nice photo Centurion! It makes you wonder how successful these messenger dogs were? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve G Posted 30 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 30 March , 2009 Britman; From what I've read of them before, they weren't half bad. I believe I still have a link, somewhere on this machine, that leads to a site about 'War Dogs' in general and gives a fair coverage of the Messenger Dogs. Britain too asked the public if they had any useful Dogs available. Not certain which war that concerned but, the mention of " Drovers Dogs " makes me suspect 14-18. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matchless Posted 31 March , 2009 Share Posted 31 March , 2009 Caption to this one "Dogs were also used at the front. Here one brings food to the front line" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Starlight Posted 31 March , 2009 Share Posted 31 March , 2009 And they were used by the "other side" against their former masters.... => http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/C00975 => the "mounted" version => http://cas.awm.gov.au/heraldry/RELAWM04369 The you have this => France. c. 1918. A British Army soldier removing a message from a German Army messenger dog which was captured in the British lines. (Donor British Official Photograph L1098) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Starlight Posted 31 March , 2009 Share Posted 31 March , 2009 Informal portrait of 3133 Corporal James Coull, in charge, with dogs of No. 3 Messenger Dog Section, attached to the 4th Divisional Signal Company, in a railway cutting near Villers-Bretonneux while operating with 12th Brigade. Section comprised sixteen men and fifty messenger dogs. These dogs worked with fairly successful results, but were never solely relied on in sending messages. Left to right: War Dog 103 Nell, a Cross Setter; 102 Trick, a Collie; 101 Buller (sometimes referred to as Bullet), an Airedale. All three dogs were very efficient in message carrying and saw service with the 2nd, 4th and 5th Australian Divisions, also with Divisions of the British 8th Corps (Imperial). 102 Trick was particularly efficient and was well known by all Brigades of abovenamed Divisions. He was specially mentioned by Signal Officer of 2nd Division for good work at Rubimont, near Heilly. Taken 3 May 1918 (Both photos curtsey of the AWM site) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 31 March , 2009 Share Posted 31 March , 2009 The British army seems to have considered them successful - they were still using messenger dogs in Korea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmaasz Posted 31 March , 2009 Share Posted 31 March , 2009 At the battle for Rifle Wood on 1/4/18 when the Oxfordshire Hussars got into the wood after their frontal attack, hordes of Germans exited from the far side of it and there were many dogs with them. The personal account that this is taken from also says that they may have been French dogs that had been abandoned in the evacuated villages, but it still seems odd that they should have been in the German front line with the troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdr Posted 31 March , 2009 Share Posted 31 March , 2009 Belgian dogs were frequently of a breed (currently extinct) called the Matin Belge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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