Place of Enlistment

[Guest ljcole]

I have always been puzzled as to why my grandfather joined the 1st Battalion Scottish Rifles when he enlisted in 1904. He was born and bred in Hoxton, London and as far as I am aware there were no family connections in Scotland. My assumption has always been that you were normally attached to a local regiment. Two of his brothers joined the 4th London Regiment when drafted in 1916.

Can anyone help to explain this mystery?

Laurence Cole

[Chris_Baker]

Laurence, I have no explanation for the enlistment/regimental logic, but I can tell you that the 1st Battalion was never referred to as the Scottish Rifles! The two regular battalions were always the 1st Cameronians, and 2nd Scottish Rifles. The latter had been a light infantry regiment before the Cardwell reforms of 1881, and jealously guarded their perceived superiority over the footslogger line infantry. They were miffed to be the 2nd Battalion, and held on to their name. You may find John Baynes' excellent 'Morale', a book about the 2nd Battalion, interesting in this regard.

[Mark]

Could it be 1st London Scottish (14th County of London Regiment)? But I think there had to be a sizeable Scottish connection to join.

[Guest ljcole]

My grandfather entered France on 15/8/14 per PRO Medal Roll. This is the exact date when the 1st Battalion arrived according to published histories of the regiment. Hence my assumption that he was attached to the 1st Batallion. The Medal Roll confirms Scottish Rifles but not the Battalion. His service history does not survive at the PRO.

He transferred to the RAF in 1919 - I have his RAF service record. This gives a brief summary of his army service but again fails to mention the Batallion.

If he was in the 2nd Batallion then he had a different war from the one he described. My grandfather took particular pride in the fact that he was one of the first soldiers to enter France and always referred to himself as a Scottish Rifle.

The London Scottish regiment is a possibility and I will look into this further. I am also approaching the MOD to see if they are holding his army service records with the RAF records.

Thanks

Laurence

[Terry_Reeves]

The confusion about the Scottish Rifles almost certainly stems from the 1881 Cardwell reforms when a two bn system was introduced and the old system of numbering regiments was dropped.

The 1st Bn title prior to this was 26th of Foot (The Cameronians). In May 1881

it was amalgamated with the 90th (Perthshire Volunteers) and renamed the 1st Bn The Scotch Rifles (Cameronians). Two months later a second Bn was formed and both units took the title Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). This stayed the same until the regiment was disbanded in 1968.

I don't doubt the veracity of Chris's source, however there was also a certain amount of snobbery (or pride) involved after the change over and many of the senior battalions persisted in referring to themselves by their former titles long after the event, but entirely unofficially.

Terry Reeves

[Chris_Baker]

I should perhaps have said that the two battalions referred to themselves as 1st Cameronians and 2nd Scottish Rifles. The official title as Terry has said was Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) for both battalions.

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Laurence

This is only a guess, but many small county Regiments would go to recruit in the big industral towns, the KSLI seem to have recruited many men from Blackburn, Lancs. So it may have been the same for The Scotch Rifles (Cameronians).

Regards

Annette

[Guest ljcole]

Thanks for the information. I wonder if anyone can tell from his regimental number which Battalion he served. I have two the first 291555 appears to have ben given on enlistment with The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) in 1904. The second 8359 appears on his medals.

He always claimed that he witnessed the deeds of Pte. Henry May V.C. at La Boutillerie 22/10/14 that led to his award. May was 1st Battalion (Scottish Rifles) but I cannot find his regimetal number anywhere. This may give some clue. Can anyone help please?

Thanks

Laurence

[Chris_Baker]

I've done a quick search using the Soldiers Died in the Great War CDROM.

Men of the Regiment with regimental numbers in the 83XX series served in a number of different Battalions: 1st, 2nd, 5th, 8th and 9th are all represented in the sequence 8300-8398. There are quite a few 1st Battalion men, but there does not seem to be a pattern in this series that would conclusively put 8359 in that Battalion. At the same time, it doesn't say he wasn't in the 1st!

If he witnessed May's VC-winning action, he must have been in the 1st, as 2nd and 5th were not yet in France at that time.

Men with 251XXX numbers were also in a wide variety of Battalions, including 5/6th, 8th, 9th and 11th. No man with a 251XXX number died before April 1917, which suggests to me that this number series was allocated to later joiners - Derby Scheme men perhaps, or later.

I would guess that 8359 was in fact your grandfathers original number, and that he was renumbered later on. Do you know if he was wounded? It was quite usual for a returning wounded soldier to be allocated a new number on rejoining.

[andrew_jackson]

An answer to Laurence's question would be of interest to me too. One of my grandfathers enlisted at Accrington on 8th September 1914 and was also posted to the Cameronians. Again, no Scottish connections.

[Guest ljcole]

He was wounded by gas sometime in 1915 and spent six months recovering. He returned to fight in the Egypt/Palestine campaign.

I understand from others on this forum that he may well have rejoined the war with the 1/8th Cameronians (territorial battalion).

The numbering now makes more sense than it did.

Thanks

Laurence

[Guest]

My grandfather Patrick O'Connor a Catholic born in Armagh Northern Ireland and at the age of 18 enlisted as a territorial with the Scottish Rifles 19 July 1904 and I am at a loss to understand why he would have done that, Does anyone have any thoughts

 

 

 

[tullybrone]

Hi,

 

As you say he enlisted as a “Territorial” it is likely he was living in the west of Scotland at the time however as the Territorial Army wasn’t created until 1908 he likely enlisted into their direct predecessor organisation “The Militia”.

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battalions_of_the_Cameronians_(Scottish_Rifles)

 

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/cameronians-scottish-rifles/

 

 

 

Steve

Edited 11 January , 2021 by tullybrone

[RussT]

21 minutes ago, tullybrone said:

As you say he enlisted as a “Territorial” it is likely he was living in the west of Scotland at the time however as the Territorial Army wasn’t created until 1908 he likely enlisted into their direct predecessor organisation “The Militia”.

 

I think it was more normally termed the Territorial Force upon its creation (rather than Territorial Army, which formally came into existence post war) and its predecessor organisation was the Volunteer Force. The Militia was the predecessor of the Special Reserve.

 

Regards

 

Russ

[FROGSMILE]

Yes I agree Russ.  
Steve you’ll have generations of militiamen turning in their graves for associating them with Territorials (and visa versa)!  The Militia (Special Reserve from 1908) were an older body than the Regular Army (dating back to feudal laws), whereas the Territorials (previous to 1908 Volunteer Force) were Johnny-come-lately’s that arose from fears of invasion by the French in 1859.

Edited 22 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[tullybrone]

On 11/01/2021 at 20:22, RussT said:

 

I think it was more normally termed the Territorial Force upon its creation (rather than Territorial Army, which formally came into existence post war) and its predecessor organisation was the Volunteer Force. The Militia was the predecessor of the Special Reserve.

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I agree Russ.  
Steve you’ll have generations of militiamen turning in their graves for associating them with Territorials (and visa versa)!  The Militia (Special Reserve from 1908) were an older body than the Regular Army (dating back to feudal laws), whereas the Territorials (previous to 1908 Volunteer Force) were Johnny-come-lately’s that arose from fears of invasion by the French in 1859.

 

 

Mea Culpa. Profuse apologies to both of you  Especially Russ as I didn’t see his post until today.
 

As I know the differences between Territorial Force and Special Reserve and their immediate predecessors the Volunteers and Militia I can only think that I was likely typing my post faster than I was thinking 

 

My gf served in the Edwardian Militia for 9 months before enlisting directly into the Regular Army and a great uncle served in the Special Reserve and on completion of his 6 months full time training also enlisted into the Regular Army.

 

I also spent many hours in the National Archives almost 20 years ago, on behalf of the Curator of the Border Regiment Museum, going through the dusty Cumberland & Westmorland Militia service record file boxes to try and establish how the Militia numbering system carried over into the Border Special Reserve numbering system from 1908 onwards.

 

Steve

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, tullybrone said:

 

 

 

Mea Culpa. Profuse apologies to both of you  Especially Russ as I didn’t see his post until today.
 

As I know the differences between Territorial Force and Special Reserve and their immediate predecessors the Volunteers and Militia I can only think that I was likely typing my post faster than I was thinking 

 

My gf served in the Edwardian Militia for 9 months before enlisting directly into the Regular Army and a great uncle served in the Special Reserve and on completion of his 6 months full time training also enlisted into the Regular Army.

 

I also spent many hours in the National Archives almost 20 years ago, on behalf of the Curator of the Border Regiment Museum, going through the dusty Cumberland & Westmorland Militia service record file boxes to try and establish how the Militia numbering system carried over into the Border Special Reserve numbering system from 1908 onwards.

 

Steve

 

 

No worries Steve, I mixed up my words earlier and said ‘invariably’, instead of the ‘usually’ that I’d meant.  It’s very easy to do when typing quickly, as you say.

Regards,

FS

Edited 22 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Grantp08]

On 11/01/2021 at 11:17, Molalla said:

My grandfather Patrick O'Connor a Catholic born in Armagh Northern Ireland and at the age of 18 enlisted as a territorial with the Scottish Rifles 19 July 1904 and I am at a loss to understand why he would have done that, Does anyone have any thoughts

 

 

 

Hi Molalla

 

Not able to shed light other than the obvious Glasgow - north of Ireland connections being strong at that point.  

 

To complicate matters, as I understand it, the 1st Battalion, The Cameronians had strong Presbyterian links having been formed as a Covenanter regiment. Maybe not the most likely choice for an Irish of Catholic background. I'm not sure if that was also the case in the 2nd Battalion. Am sure some of regiment experts will know more.

[Guest]

My grandfather was 18 at the time of enlisting. He was living with his grandparents in northern ireland and I understand that life was hard, there was no work and he was seen as a bit of a cuckoo in the nest by his uncles.

I dont think he would have travelled to dundee out of speculation. Could it be that the Scottish Rifles went to ireland to drum up volunteers with the promise of good meals and pay?

There was alot of 'convenience' Catholics and Protestants at the time where need demanded it.

 

[FROGSMILE]

On 25/03/2021 at 16:38, Molalla said:

My grandfather was 18 at the time of enlisting. He was living with his grandparents in northern ireland and I understand that life was hard, there was no work and he was seen as a bit of a cuckoo in the nest by his uncles.

I dont think he would have travelled to dundee out of speculation. Could it be that the Scottish Rifles went to ireland to drum up volunteers with the promise of good meals and pay?

There was alot of 'convenience' Catholics and Protestants at the time where need demanded it.

 

In 1904 when your grandfather enlisted the 1st Battalion of the Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles) were garrisoned at Nowshera, India.  The 2nd Battalion, however, were based at Glasgow, having returned from the 2nd Anglo/Boer War, which significantly was also the location of the regiment’s headquarters and training depot, albeit shared with another regiment, the Highland Light Infantry (just a few regiments shared a depot in this way).  
 

Glasgow had (still has culturally) very strong links with both of Ireland’s religious communities and the two regiments had significant numbers of Irishmen, or men of Irish extraction in their ranks, regardless of religious allegiance.  As you have surmised, sheer pragmatism ruled, although there’s no doubt that regimental routine had a strong Protestant (Covenanter) slant to it, but men of [many] other persuasions just kept their heads down and immersed themselves in their duties and the general camaraderie of barracks life.  
 

Both regiments were filled with men from poor (and tough), working-class families.  With the strong Irish associations mentioned it’s not impossible that small recruiting teams visited Ireland to ‘beat up recruits’ (encourage via beat of drum), although these occurred less often and it was equally easy for an Irishman to join the army via his nearest barracks.  If he did not claim allegiance to his local regiment, and it was already at a good strength, then surplus men would readily be sent to other regiments in need.  

 

The recruiters (there were retired soldiers and officers dedicated to this in each military ‘District’) would have been well aware of the Glasgow based regiments’ close association.  Whether your grandfather enlisted via his nearest barracks, or caught a ferry to Glasgow (probably unaffordable) and joined there would have been recorded on his Attestation Form (a document that all soldiers completed when they joined), but sadly these were kept with each man’s service record and they were mostly destroyed (5/6th) by WW2 bombing of the warehouse where they were stored, so it’s unlikely to have survived.  I hope that helps.

 

Your use of the word “Territorial” was confusing as they were not formed until 1908.  The equivalent in 1904 were Volunteer Battalion’s (VB) that recruited part-time (auxiliary) soldiers from among the working men of Glasgow and surrounding areas.  These were for home defence and in addition to the two regular battalions I mentioned above.  If that’s what he did it would suggest that he was already in Glasgow and working in an industry, or perhaps the docks there (or indeed any other occupation). 

 

Edited 28 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE