HMS Orion/Pandora striking an officer

[annamaehendrick22]

Dear All

My Grandfather was on both ships prior to his Court Marshall (1903 0r 5 received 12 months for hitting a Superior officer. ) On completion accepted back in and seconded to HMAS Sydney. Q1 is this unsual. Q2 Nat Archives no recorded. they state "weeding" Try Capt logs etc where else can I look. He always regretted what he did, so I am told and was given the opp to apologise but ended up hitting him again. Told the Sup Officer was very cruel nevertheless what he did was wrong and always regretted. Where can I find further info. thanks tj

[annamaehendrick22]

ps He was on HMAS Sydney at the time of the Emden and we have the commerative medal. It would also appear he received good conduct medals. From his records all say good conduct apart from year CM, states "indiff" (supposedly i think indifferent) HELP

[melliget]

tjay.

Re Q2, I'm not clear on what "weeding" refers to. Can you please clarify? And are you talking about the National Archives (UK) or the National Archives of Australia?

Do you mind providing your grandfather's full name and date/location of birth?

regards,

Martin

[per ardua per mare per terram]

1) From the information you've provided it looks like he served his sentance and continued on.

2) The UK National Archives do not have the complete series of every court martial; there are several that have been weeded.

[annamaehendrick22]

[Hi Martin

His name Peter Toner DOB 20.june 1870 at Donegal Ireland. He was CM on 23.03.03 ser no152764. Do not know whch ship he was on at the time. It was the Nat Archives England. Spoke with them they said it may have been removed/ destroyed (they call weeding) Thought maybe logs might mention thanks tj

[horatio2]

What evidence do you have that he was tried by court martial? He could have received a warrant punishment from his commanding officer. His crime was striking a "superior officer" - that does not mean a commissioned officer, it could be a senior rating. The number you quote above as a CM Ser. No. is his RN official number. His papers are at Kew and can be down-loaded if you don't have them.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1

[joseph]

For 12 months Imprisonment it had to be a Courts Martial the maximum a Commanding Officer ( if a Commander) could award by Punishment Warrant was 3 months.

Regards Charles

[annamaehendrick22]

thankyou yes I do have that record definately says 12 mths "striking superior Officer" . Is is unusual to have been allowed to return to service and does anyone know what the ref "folio15(could be 18).2 759 might mean and where he might have served the 12 months thanks

[joseph]

Not unusual to be allowed to stay in the navy after such an act, especially if the act brought out information that the Superior Officer was cruel.

Regards Charles

[David B]

Hi,

Even if he thumped a leading hand it would be construed as striking a superior officer. I suspect if it had been a commissioned

officer you would not have seen much more of him other than in the glasshouse.

Having said that, good conduct in the navy was usually assessed yearly, so if he had kept his nose clean after the "event" he would

have been given a good conduct rating. There was also another good conduct grade known as VGC (Very good conduct)

david

[annamaehendrick22]

thankyou all very much> Your replies help paint a better picture. His conduct from his records all say vg before and after. I see from his HMAS Sydney records theres mention of good conduct medals. will just have to keep digging. thanks again

[melliget]

tjay.

From your grandfather's RAN service record (not a lot of detail - sounds like you already have this), he joined the RAN 10.3.1913 and demobilized 14.10.1919 and for all of the period, his character was Very Good and ability Superior, so appears to have been a good decision to re-admit (just had a problem with that one officer, by the sound of it). There is one other document regarding your grandfather on the NAA, his application for war gratuity to the Navy, but these are generally just routine paperwork and it's not currently online.

regards,

Martin

[annamaehendrick22]

thanks Martin. His three daughters are still alive one being my mother all now very elderly it will be great to show them this reply. We knew he had been court marshalled but they never told us about the 12 months, until quite recently. One of daughters is a Carmelite nun and she will pleased to read this thanks again tjay

[melliget]

tjay.

Glad the information provided here has been of help. I don't know if you noticed the other current thread on HMAS Sydney, "HMAS Sydney - Officers 1914". I just checked. Your grandfather is listed as being aboard when the Emden was destroyed (see page 15).

regards,

Martin

[annamaehendrick22]

No did not have this have been trying to get the names of crew so this is great thank you very much Martin regards Tjay

[annamaehendrick22]

dont know how i missed it just checking out other sites realise the difficulty of being able to get to Kew to search records. I am hopefully going in July this year (live in Scotland). Would be quite happy to search for others, especially those living in far of lands. Scared I might get inundated. Will be there for about three days. Know London well used to live there. Wish I had the bug then. So not a sight seeing jaunt purely Nat Archives. But anyway do you have any suggestions how I might go about this. You have been so helpful. See you are in Australia more than happy to undertake any research, but please bear in mind I am a novice bye tjay

[melliget]

tjay.

I don't wish to dissuade you from volunteering your services for your visit to Kew but make sure you leave enough time for your own research, won't you. You could get inundated You may find that examination of certain records leads to other records and opens up whole new lines of investigation. If you haven't done so already, perhaps have a look through the list of Research Guides to see if there's anything else you can look at on your visit. Though I lived in London for a few years, I didn't make it to the National Archives unfortunately. I'm sure there are plenty on board who have though and would be able to give advice. You may have already looked at this: Plan your visit to The National Archives.

regards,

Martin

[annamaehendrick22]

Thanks Martin however there could be someone somewhere that needs a card index looked up in GB cant afford the journey. Thought about your message so plan is

Day 1 travel

Day 2 familiarise

Day 3 research for others

Day 4 and 5 me

Day 6 home

(yes ive now expanded my stay)

I need to be organised as my children are severly disabled (twins) so this is a very or going to be a very planned week. But I would so love to help someone that cannot get to the archives. Leave it with you. Do you know a group that this offer would be beneficial to. Will maybe put it on line a couple of weeks before I go. But would prefer to go through a respected org, see what happens. Maybe Its meant all of it me time but again thanks