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149th. (County Palatine) Brigade, R.F.A.


Paul Carter.
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amongst some post war London Gazette medal lists i see the names of -

Lt. E. H. Wood, , attd. 149th Bde.

Hardie, 2nd Lt. A. S., in B/149th Bde....

and Maj. (A./Lt.-Col.) G. Masters, D.S.O., 149th Bde. who may well be the Bde commander in the photo

the medal ribbons may be useful indicators - some of the officers look to have quite long ribbons ...

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  • 1 year later...

I have now managed to establish that the 2 photos above (ie Officer Group & Officer + NCO Group) were taken at Listenois Barracks (Caserne de Listenois), at Aire-sur-la-Lys.

According to the unit War Diary the 149th Brigade were in barracks at Aire from the 2nd December, 1918. I think therefore that the photographs must have been taken between 2nd Dec and the 7th Jan 1919, when, according to his Army Book 439, my uncle, Major James McNeill left the unit.

I'm still wondering if any of the other men in the photos can be identified.

Doug

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  • 3 years later...

My great grandfather (James Herbert Haydock) was a Gunner and then a Bombadier with B/149.  He survived the war (just), and was with the unit Nov 1915 to Dec 1916 before he became too injured to continue (he was in hospital Dec 1916 until the end of the war).  He got two "Military Medal" awards (later known as the military cross awards) while in the unit, so he was Bombadier James Herbert Haydock MMbar in the end.  I've got his military records (from his time in the hospital) and a copy of the war diaries from the 149 division (from ancestry.com), so I know a lot of what happened. However, I'm not 100% sure what he got his two medals for as he never liked to talk about it with his family on his return to England...... Does anyone have any information on him by any chance?  Also, does anyone have any questions of me?

Thank you 

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Hi Haydock,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

10 hours ago, Haydock said:

My great grandfather (James Herbert Haydock) was...with B/149.  He...was with the unit Nov 1915 to Dec 1916

 

I didn't read his service papers in quite the same way. For me, they seem to say that James joined up in April 1915, and served with B/149 until 18th February 1916 when he was posted to a Trench Mortar School. From there it looks like he was posted to X30 (then called 411th) Trench Mortar Battery on 24th February 1916. Both units were part of 30 Division. It looks like his MM and subsequent Bar were originally announced in the London Gazette in November 1916 and February 1917. Announcements didn't appear with any citation.

 

There is advice on researching MMs here.

 

11 hours ago, Haydock said:

"Military Medal" awards (later known as the military cross awards) 

 

They aren't the same thing. See here.

 

Good luck with your research.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

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Haydock

The MM is LG 29819 p 10923 (09/11/1916) where his name is spelt "Haycock". The Bar is shown in the LG 29953 p 1758 (19/02/1917) - His name is correct but his number is shown as 10509. On the same page in Corrections for LG 11/11/1916 it says for L/16509 Haycock read 10509 Haydock. 411th TMB became 30 Div TMB and as far as I can tell there were 2 Trench Mortar Batteries in 30 Div. The 21 Infantry Brigade TMB WDs are in WO 95/2330/6 (On Ancestry p 513 to 542/664). It only goes up to August 1916. The 89 Infantry Brigade TMB WDs are in WO 95/2366/5 (On Ancestry p 319 to 414/414). I notice that he enlisted in Bolton on 05/04/1915. He should be named in Rally to the Flag in the Bolton Evening News and there is a good chance that there may be a report of his his MM and Bar in the Bolton papers. I will check tomorrow.

Brian.

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2 hours ago, clk said:

Hi Haydock,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Thank you Chris.....  You actually bring up something very interesting that has been bothering me and I'm just getting to the bottom of... My great grandfather was James Herbert Haydock or J H Haydock (number L/16509).  However I believe there was also a J Haydock (number  10509).  I have military records and personal records and medical records for my ancestor that all match each other (and match his oral explanations etc too).  I am not sure  who J Haydock (number 10509) is, but my first sight of him was in the corrections in the Feb 1917 London Gazette.  At first they listed the MM medal for J H Haycock (L/16509) in Nov 1916, with Haydock misspelled as Haycock.  Then in the Feb 1917 London Gazette they listed his second medal MM but named him as J Haydock (10509).  Also in that Feb 1917 London Gazette they listed a correction for the Nov 1916 entry, correcting his name.. However, in that correction they appear to attribute his first medal to J Haydock (10509).  I guess I can trust the London Gazette less than the military/medical/personal records......  However, it did leave me scratching my head for a while....   Are you talking about my ancestor J H Haydock (L/16509), or are you talking about J Haydock (10509) when you talk about Tranch Mortar School etc?

Thanks again

 

Sarah

 

2 hours ago, clk said:

I didn't read his service papers in quite the same way. For me, they seem to say that James joined up in April 1915, and served with B/149 until 18th February 1916 when he was posted to a Trench Mortar School. From there it looks like he was posted to X30 (then called 411th) Trench Mortar Battery on 24th February 1916. Both units were part of 30 Division. It looks like his MM and subsequent Bar were originally announced in the London Gazette in November 1916 and February 1917. Announcements didn't appear with any citation.

 

There is advice on researching MMs here.

 

 

They aren't the same thing. See here.

 

Good luck with your research.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

 

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Hi Sarah,

 

27 minutes ago, Haydock said:

Are you talking about my ancestor J H Haydock (L/16509), or are you talking about J Haydock (10509) when you talk about Tranch Mortar School etc?

 

I was looking at the service papers (linked in my other post) for L/16509 James Herbert Haydock, born circa 1889, mother Elizabeth, resident of Prestolee Farm, Stoneclough near Manchester. The relevant part of his record is:

 

Sarah.thumb.jpg.9f5b1de8cbdbbbd8a5a2aa1a280e4c5a.jpg

Source: Findmypast - British Army Service Records collection

 

 I think that there is a confusion in the London Gazette, and that the 2 men are one in the same.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

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James H Haydock of Prestolee Farm, Stoneclough is named in the Bolton Evening News "Rally to the Flag" on 06/04/1915, the day after he enlisted. This cutting is from the weekly Bolton Journal dated 09/04/1915. There is a report in the Farnworth Journal 02/02/1917 but unfortunately the fiche held by Bolton (and Farnworth) libraries does not show it, many pages and articles being blanked out. His photograph appears in a supplement to the FJ dated 28/12/1917. This shows Farnworth medallists. The same photo appears in the FJ 01/11/1918 which is a report of a presentation of gold watches to CSM Farrington of the Loyals and Bdr J H Haydock RFA. There is a brief account of how he was awarded the MM and bar. The National Newspaper Library at Colindale (which may have moved) will have the original and fiche copies. It is part of the British Library. There is a good bet that the article on 02/02/1917 will be a report of his Awards.

Brian

rtfhaydock.jpg

fjhaydock.jpg

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Hi,

 

That's interesting. The newspaper report seems to make a distinction between a gun (and gun team) relating to his original MM action, and a trench mortar relating to his Bar action. Given an approximate 3 month 'rule' the announcement of his MM in the LG of November 1916 should have put the action circa August 1916, at which time (according to his service history) he had already been posted to the TMB for about 6 months.

 

I wonder if 30 Division were in the habit of publishing notifications of awards and decorations in their 'routine orders' that may help to clarify?

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

 

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Chris

I had noticed that. It's a pity that we do not have the article dated 02/02/1917. I am planning a trip to Kew in the near future and have made a note to check the Routine Orders in the WDs of the A&QMG for 30 Div, 8 Corps and 15 Corps.

Brian

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On 7/3/2017 at 11:11, clk said:

Hi Sarah,

 

 

I was looking at the service papers (linked in my other post) for L/16509 James Herbert Haydock, born circa 1889, mother Elizabeth, resident of Prestolee Farm, Stoneclough near Manchester. The relevant part of his record is:

 

Sarah.thumb.jpg.9f5b1de8cbdbbbd8a5a2aa1a280e4c5a.jpg

Source: Findmypast - British Army Service Records collection

 

 I think that there is a confusion in the London Gazette, and that the 2 men are one in the same.

 

Regards

Chris

 

Thank you Chris, that is so helpful... I don't have subscription to findmypast, so I was obtaining records from other places...  Thank you so much again!

 

On 7/3/2017 at 11:11, clk said:

 

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

Chris

I had noticed that. It's a pity that we do not have the article dated 02/02/1917. I am planning a trip to Kew in the near future and have made a note to check the Routine Orders in the WDs of the A&QMG for 30 Div, 8 Corps and 15 Corps.

Brian

Thank you so much Brian

This is fabulous information from you.....  Very little is known in our family as James Herbert didn't like to talk about the war.   I know my uncle will be grateful to see some of this as he has been trying to dig up a few things about his Grandfather Haydock.... My family is still in Stoneclough so my Uncle started with Prestolee Church as that is where James Herbert was listed in some kind of honour roll......  I forgot to add that I learned a lot about James Herbert as he has a lot of files in the archives of the Royal College of Surgeons in London.  He had pioneering facial plastic surgery at Queens Hospital in Sidcup (where the field of facial plastic surgery apparently began in 1917).  They are moving the archives this summer to a new building so I don't have everything yet.  He really lost most of his face/jaw on 4 Dec 1916 and was admitted to Queens hospital on 16 Dec 1916. He officially remained posted at Queens Hospital Sidcup (where he received his second medal in a parade / ceremony at the hospital) for a long time....  At least until his discharge from the military in Feb 1919.  He got married in May 1919, so I guess he must have been more or less healed by then!  However, his daughter-in-law (my grandmother) said he always struggled a bit with his face.  He lived to a good old age and had 3 kids though, so he must have been a tough cookie!!!!

 

Edited by Haydock
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On 7/3/2017 at 08:23, brianmorris547 said:

Haydock

The MM is LG 29819 p 10923 (09/11/1916) where his name is spelt "Haycock". The Bar is shown in the LG 29953 p 1758 (19/02/1917) - His name is correct but his number is shown as 10509. On the same page in Corrections for LG 11/11/1916 it says for L/16509 Haycock read 10509 Haydock. 411th TMB became 30 Div TMB and as far as I can tell there were 2 Trench Mortar Batteries in 30 Div. The 21 Infantry Brigade TMB WDs are in WO 95/2330/6 (On Ancestry p 513 to 542/664). It only goes up to August 1916. The 89 Infantry Brigade TMB WDs are in WO 95/2366/5 (On Ancestry p 319 to 414/414). I notice that he enlisted in Bolton on 05/04/1915. He should be named in Rally to the Flag in the Bolton Evening News and there is a good chance that there may be a report of his his MM and Bar in the Bolton papers. I will check tomorrow.

Brian.

Thank you again Brian.  I read the war diaries from 89th brigade of the 30th division (they seemed to talk about being a machine gun brigade rather than trench mortar battery though). They had a quiet November and December in 1916, and James Herbert apparently was in some horrific fight on Dec 4th 1916 where he was the last man standing at his gun (hence the medal) and where he lost his jaw.  I am therefore assuming he was with the 21st. The war diaries from the 21st do talk a lot about trench mortar battery, but sadly they don't reach Dec 1916.... Possibly due to the aforementioned fight? Thanks again.... Sarah Haydock

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Sarah

I was at TNA Kew this morning. There were no mentions of Honours and Rewards in the WDs of the Adjutant and Quarter Master General for 8 Corps or for 15 Corps, nor was there any mention in the WD of the A&QMG 30 Div. (WO 95/2315/3). There were, however, lists of Unit locations at various dates in the 30 Div A&QMG Diary. These showed that each Infantry Brigade of 30 Div had a TMB (Light) manned by Infantry which was numbered as per the Infantry Brigade, in this case 21, 89 and 90 but also there were four other TMBs manned by the RFA. These were X (medium), Y (medium), Z (Medium) and V (Heavy). They were later shown as X30, Y30 etc, so the 30X on the Statement of Services now makes sense. Should have consulted TLLT where it is all explained.http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/the-british-trench-mortar-batteries-in-the-first-world-war/ 

The WDs for 30 Div TMBs are in WO 95/2321/7 but they do not start until June 1917. The earlier ones may be elsewhere in 2321.

Brian

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

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Sorry about my post above. When I was writing I could plainly see the first page of my grandfather's war diary but now having posted, it's blank and I can't find delete so I'll leave it like that but apologies everyone. Nothing more frustrating and annoying, even for me. :(

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  • 1 month later...
On 20/11/2012 at 15:01, DougMcNeill said:

Second post incorporating second photo

I have inherited letters written by my great-uncle, Major James McFadyen McNeill, during his WW1 service and other associated material. I am now trying to find the story behind the material with a view to producing a book based on the letters.

James McNeill took command of B Battery, 149th Brigade RFA on his promotion to Major the 4th of May, 1918. Previously he had been a captain with A Battery, 94th Brigade. He remained with the 149th until his de-mobilisation in January 1919.

I would be interested in any information on the 149th Brigade during James's service.

In particular I would like to find out more about the 2 photos attached I think they are both of the 149th Brigade taken at the end of the war.

Photo 1 is a group of officers and NCOs (from B Battery?) James is the central figure with the dog on his lap.

Photo 2 is a group of officers (entire complement of officers of 149th?) James is immediately to the right of the central seated figure.

Can anyone?

  1. Identify any of the other men in the photos
  2. Confirm my thoughts on the composition of the groups
  3. identify the location
  4. determine when they might have been taken

 

Photo 2

post-93662-0-32213200-1353423676_thumb.j

Dear Doug 

 

Are you still active on the Forum? I have an annotated copy of this picture naming all the officers. Will post when I get home... 

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On 20/11/2012 at 15:01, DougMcNeill said:

Second post incorporating second photo

I have inherited letters written by my great-uncle, Major James McFadyen McNeill, during his WW1 service and other associated material. I am now trying to find the story behind the material with a view to producing a book based on the letters.

James McNeill took command of B Battery, 149th Brigade RFA on his promotion to Major the 4th of May, 1918. Previously he had been a captain with A Battery, 94th Brigade. He remained with the 149th until his de-mobilisation in January 1919.

I would be interested in any information on the 149th Brigade during James's service.

In particular I would like to find out more about the 2 photos attached I think they are both of the 149th Brigade taken at the end of the war.

Photo 1 is a group of officers and NCOs (from B Battery?) James is the central figure with the dog on his lap.

Photo 2 is a group of officers (entire complement of officers of 149th?) James is immediately to the right of the central seated figure.

Can anyone?

  1. Identify any of the other men in the photos
  2. Confirm my thoughts on the composition of the groups
  3. identify the location
  4. determine when they might have been taken

 

Photo 2

post-93662-0-32213200-1353423676_thumb.j

Annotated version as promised bought from eBay a couple of years ago

149 RFA 600p.jpg

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Lt E H Bishop

 

Lt Walter Reynolds Booth born 14 Sep 1891 James Booth Martha Booth Baptism Date:28 Feb 1892Wesleyan Methodist Chapel, Thornton Bradford Yorkshire captured 9th April 1918 repatriated 29th November St Bees School Contingent, Junior Division, O T C died June 1963

1

Lt E O Cave?

Lt V J Underwood    Civil Service Rifles    2nd Northumbrian Brigade 2nd Northumbrian Ammunition Column

2lt A S Hardie

2lt C K Harris

Lt  E G Cumberlege

Lt E H Fox

2

2lt E R Riley

2Lt C G Gordon

2Lt S C Groves

2Lt D Laughton

Capt H W Wilkinson

2Lt H Smith ?

2Lt BK Garvice Basil Kendal Acting Sergt 1st Canadian Pioneer Bn 154082 applied commission October 1916 - 'Sydney, Vancouver Island British Columbia'

born Bideford Devon 18th August 1885 son Charles and Elizabeth educated Shorne College civil engineer Canada 1912 m Margery R Cossentine 1914 attested 30th August 1915 died March 1964

Capt A P Andrews Army Veterinary Corps

2Lt RH Peake ?

2Lt E H Wood

3

Capt PR Boswell Royal Army Medical Corps

Capt RH Pearson ('adjt')

Maj B O Moore

Maj D Allen

Lt Col G Masters DSO

Maj JM McNeill

Maj AA Luxmoore

Capt Turner

Capt EW Broad

 

"underlined = 'C' Battery"

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