Kings Regulations 1923

[smithg777591]

Good evening,

Can anyone please help with regard to Discharged Para 363(xv111)dated 24/9/24 on a Medal roll for 1915 Star. What is clause (xv111) or (xviii) ?

Thanks for any help

Gerry

[Richard Jones]

Hello Gerry,

Welcome to the Forum. I suspect that it means "After 18 years service at his own request". If you post the man's name and number, maybe we can look him up on Ancestry. Then we can view the details in their full context and make more sense of them.

Regards Mike Jones

[smithg777591]

Hello Gerry,

Welcome to the Forum. I suspect that it means "After 18 years service at his own request". If you post the man's name and number, maybe we can look him up on Ancestry. Then we can view the details in their full context and make more sense of them.

Regards Mike Jones

Hi Mike,

This is my granddad.He only enlisted for the duration of the war i.e in 1914/1915 when he was only 18 years old and left in 1918/1919 so it could not be after 18 years service as per KR .I know from posts on the forum KR 392 was updated by KR

363 but clause (xviii) does not seem right in this case.

Anyway, his name and number is Pte.Patrick Fogarty, Royal Irish Rifles No:2/11299 and his records appear to be destroyed,only MIC available.

Any help or direction is appreciated.

Regards

Gerry

[Richard Jones]

Hi Gerry,

I have looked at Patrick Fogarty's Medal Index Card (MIC) and I understand it all now. Actually I lied, it makes no sense to me at all. If you think about it, why would he have been discharged in 1918/19 using a King's Regulation from 1923? Do you have his medals? His MIC says they were returned AFTER 1923. According to his MIC, he deserted. His original 1915 Star was issued with the reference number B/ 4B page 222. The medal got restored under Ref. B8 B5 page 823. I think it was the restoration of the medal that the 1923 Kings Regulation was about. I do have the 1912 regs but not the 1923. We can only hope someone will come in with them. On the back of his MIC is the note "B104 - 117 dated 30.9.24.. "

This I am sure is a reference to Army Form B104 -117 but again, I do not know what this form was for, sorry.

Regards Mike

[smithg777591]

Hi Gerry,

I have looked at Patrick Fogarty's Medal Index Card (MIC) and I understand it all now. Actually I lied, it makes no sense to me at all. If you think about it, why would he have been discharged in 1918/19 using a King's Regulation from 1923? Do you have his medals? His MIC says they were returned AFTER 1923. According to his MIC, he deserted. His original 1915 Star was issued with the reference number B/ 4B page 222. The medal got restored under Ref. B8 B5 page 823. I think it was the restoration of the medal that the 1923 Kings Regulation was about. I do have the 1912 regs but not the 1923. We can only hope someone will come in with them. On the back of his MIC is the note "B104 - 117 dated 30.9.24.. "

This I am sure is a reference to Army Form B104 -117 but again, I do not know what this form was for, sorry.

Regards Mike

Thanks Mike,

I will just have to keep looking.You never know what I might find!!

Regards Gerry

[MelPack]

Mike & Gerry

Just a bit of speculation here because I am not conversant with the KR 1923.

We have established on another thread that there was no general post war pardon for desertion. However, the army advertised for deserters to come forward and, subject to their accepting the Court of Inquiry finding of desertion, a Court Martial was dispensed with and the ex soldier formally discharged and issued with a Certificate of Protection.

This may explain what has occurred here.

Regards

Mel

[shinglma]

Chaps

KR 992 of 1923 concerned unclaimed medals:

"Medals which, at the end of one year, still remain unclaimed, will be sent to the Secretary, The War Office."

which would explain how a King's Regulation from 1923 might apply to the medal card of a man discharged approx four years earlier.

Mike S

[Richard Jones]

Hi Guys,

I too now suspect that this is about an application made by Patrick Fogarty for his medals. That is why I asked if Gerry has his Grandfather's medals. He has not as yet answered. As Melpack has said there was no straight pardon but a soldier could apply under certain conditions for his medals. This was under Army Council Instuction 75 of 1921. Looking at the Medal Index Card (MIC) the medals were returned to Woolich for scrap and never sent to Patrick. There is no I V reference number. We are beginning to get too many reference numbers in this post. We know the medals were returned under KR 992 of 1923 but Gerry wanted to know what a discharge under KR 363 of 1923 section XViii (18) was all about. I do not know this one. Also I have become interested in Army Form B104 - 117. There is a thread in the "Classic Thread" section of the Forum (About Forms) but I cant find B104 mentioned. Any ideas anyone?

Regards Mike

Edited 2.5.09 Sorry Chaps, My Roman Numerals were wrong. I made XViii to be 16. I have corrected it to 18.

[smithg777591]

Hi Guys,

I too now suspect that this is about an application made by Patrick Fogarty for his medals. That is why I asked if Gerry has his Grandfather's medals. He has not as yet answered. As Melpack has said there was no straight pardon but a soldier could apply under certain conditions for his medals. This was under Army Council Instuction 75 of 1921. Looking at the Medal Index Card (MIC) the medals were returned to Woolich for scrap and never sent to Patrick. There is no I V reference number. We are beginning to get too many reference numbers in this post. We know the medals were returned under KR 992 of 1923 but Gerry wanted to know what a discharge under KR 363 of 1923 section XViii (16) was all about. I do not know this one. Also I have become interested in Army Form B104 - 117. There is a thread in the "Classic Thread" section of the Forum (About Forms) but I cant find B104 mentioned. Any ideas anyone?

Regards Mike

Hello lads,

Firstly thanks for your interest and help.

I am afraid we do not have the medals and I do not know if they were ever received as the my grandfather did not live at the address on the MIC as he had joined the Free State Army in Eire at that stage.

On the 1915 Star Medal Roll Page 823 date stamped 30/9/1924 in handwriting, it has

I.V.R 9/626 d/23-10-24 a/s .B /1092 so perhaps the medal was posted out to his old home address in Belfast.

His date of desertion is 31/3/18 and at that stage the 6th Batt R IR Rif were in Gaza and the interesting thing is that his Batt was disbanded 6 weeks later.I would love to try and get more information about this as I doubt that his medals would have been restored if he had not been apprehended as they were still in the front line !!

The B104/117 is dated the same date as the above date brand from the Infantry Record Office in Hamilton and this refers to the BWM & VM which might be a clue.

Regards

Gerry

[shinglma]

We know the medals were returned under KR 992 of 1923 but Gerry wanted to know what a discharge under KR 363 of 1923 section XViii (16) was all about. I do not know this one.

Gerry/Mike

I had a look at KR 1923 at Kew yesterday. Para 363 concerns "Transfers to the Army Reserve and Discharge" and is fairly lengthy (11 pages). It would therefore appear to replace Para 392 from the 1912 edition.

Sub-para xviii is "His services being no longer required" with a number of sub-clauses covering the situations in which it was to be used. The first of these is a 'catch-all', i) a soldier who cannot be discharged under any other para.

I can provide copies of this if you are interested. Its too lengthy to quote here in full (at least with the time available to me today).

Regards

Mike S

[smithg777591]

Gerry/Mike

I had a look at KR 1923 at Kew yesterday. Para 363 concerns "Transfers to the Army Reserve and Discharge" and is fairly lengthy (11 pages). It would therefore appear to replace Para 392 from the 1912 edition.

Sub-para xviii is "His services being no longer required" with a number of sub-clauses covering the situations in which it was to be used. The first of these is a 'catch-all', i) a soldier who cannot be discharged under any other para.

I can provide copies of this if you are interested. Its too lengthy to quote here in full (at least with the time available to me today).

Regards

Mike S

Hi Mike S,

A copy of the above would be brillant as I am living in Dublin so a visit to Kew would be out for me at present.Hope to get there at some stage when I have more information.

Need to see if I can find out more about my grandfather who died before I was born.

Many thanks

Gerry

[shinglma]

Gerry

Send me a pm with your email address and I will send photographs of the relevant pages.

Regards

Mike S

[smithg777591]

Gerry

Send me a pm with your email address and I will send photographs of the relevant pages.

Regards

Mike S

Mike,

Not to sure how to send pm on the forum but my e mail address is gmdkcsmith@gmail.com

many thanks for your help with this one.

Regards

Gerry

[james-aitch]

Gerry/Mike

I had a look at KR 1923 at Kew yesterday. Para 363 concerns "Transfers to the Army Reserve and Discharge" and is fairly lengthy (11 pages). It would therefore appear to replace Para 392 from the 1912 edition.

Sub-para xviii is "His services being no longer required" with a number of sub-clauses covering the situations in which it was to be used. The first of these is a 'catch-all', i) a soldier who cannot be discharged under any other para.

I can provide copies of this if you are interested. Its too lengthy to quote here in full (at least with the time available to me today).

Regards

Mike S

Dear Mike s

I was just wondering if you could assist me, I'm a brand new member to this forum and I don't even know whether I'm sending this correctlyI’m in the process of researching my late Great uncle's military service in WW1 and afterwards, I have just recently had correspondents back from the RHF museum at Glasgow which shows l/cpl Peter Aitchison's attestation roll.

On it shows his discharge notes which read:--

PARA 363 (xvi) KR

Physically unfit

This is dated 26/8/1924.

I understand from the reading the previous posts you are in possession of the regulations, I was just wondering if you could assist.

kind regards

james

[Catherine Senior]

My great grandfather's discharge note says para 370 (xxiii) KR - he left the army in 1934. Could you tell me what this paragraph refers to please?

 

Also we know he was last with the 6th Dragoon Guards and there are 2 dates of campaigns he was part of.  BEF from January 1917 to September 1919.  We did not know he fought at all so were surprised to see the campaign dates so late in the war (and after armistice day).  Would this have been in France or in UK? 

 

I really would appreciate your help.

Thanks, Catherine

[Steven Broomfield]

Catherine, given this thread is over 10 years old, I'd suggest you start a new one (in the 'Soldiers' area) with your Gt Grandfather's name in the title. If you put in what you know already, I am sure quite a few people will pile in to assist.

 

 

Welcome to the Forum, by the way

[Catherine Senior]

Thanks Steven, I'll do that.

Best, Catherine