Private 2nd class

[Stephen White]

I have had the death certificate for my great grandfather (see my signature) for some considerable time. I had at the time I bought it vainly hoped that it might have some information on the nature of the wounds he died from, however it didn't as I now know it wouldn't have, it just says died of wounds for cause of death.

That aside what has always puzzled me is in the column for rank it says "private" as I'd expect, but after private it has (2), does this actually mean anything. In discussions with other people two trains of thought have come up. He was either private 2nd class or a private acting "another rank".

Any ideas

Stephen

[John_Hartley]

Stephen

I believe the American army had/has first and second class privates. You're not a secret Yank are you?

John

[dycer]

Stephen,

This is from a 1914 Recruitment Post Card describing Soldiers pay.

Weekly

On joining----------------- 6s 8.5d

After two years' service(if proficient and serving on an approved term of more than three years)

2nd Class------------------8s 5.5d

1st Class------------------10s 2.5d

George

p.s.Sorry about the mixture of Imperial and Metric.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Private Second Class was a also a rank in the RAF.

[Tinhat47]

Private First Class is a rank in the U.S. Army and Marine Corps. There's never been a Private Second Class that I've ever heard of.

[Stephen White]

Stephen,

This is from a 1914 Recruitment Post Card describing Soldiers pay.

Weekly

On joining----------------- 6s 8.5d

After two years' service(if proficient and serving on an approved term of more than three years)

2nd Class------------------8s 5.5d

1st Class------------------10s 2.5d

George

p.s.Sorry about the mixture of Imperial and Metric.

That sort of makes sense, he re enlisted and landed in France in November 1914 and was dead within 5 months so thats well within the two years. Would they make him prove himself proficient even though he'd previously served with the colours (admittedly after a break of nearly 9 years)?

Stephen

p.s. John I'm not a secret yank I can assure you, I'm of good Astonian stock, Brummie through and through.

[bob lembke]

I believe that in the American Army of 150 years ago an infantry company might have a "1st lieutenant", a "2nd lieutenant", and a "3rd lieutenant". Brings to mind a ship with a "1st mate", a "2nd mate", and a "3rd mate".

Bob Lembke

[dycer]

Stephen,

I can only quote from the Card(if you want to read it in full,it's on the 8th Royal Scots Section of John Duncan's web-site-Newbattle at War).

There must be some guidance,somewhere,determining how a Private proved his proficiency for pay purposes.

For the TF,in 1914,proficiency to be proved before transfer to France,seems to have comprised three months hard training,including long route marches whether this was the same for ex-Regulars,I am not sure as, how previous service reckoned for pay purposes on rejoining the Army.

George

[Stephen White]

I'll have to check on that, because looking at his MIC his qualifying date is 11.11.1914, so I doubt he'd have qualified under the three month rule, doubtful there would have been enough time.

He wasn't an ex-regular though he was in the militia, the 6th Royal Warwickshire Regiment and he served in South Africa. He was discharged as having served his 6 years in December 1905. When he re-enlisted he went into the 2nd Battalion.

[dycer]

Stephen,

Apologies,I assumed he was an ex-Regular.

What is interesting,though,is that he appears to have joined a Regular Battalion of the Royal Warwicks,as a member of a draft on 11th November 1914,per MIC.

If you access the Web-site,I have referred to,to view the Post Card( Boy Soldier Sections and the Battalion History section),you will read and hear an indication of their pre-France training,as a TF Battalion,prior to arriving in France on 5th November 1914 and being attached to the 7th Division on the 11th.I note, per the LLT, the 2nd Royal Warwicks,were members of the same Division.

Is it possible that your Grt/Grandfather,having previous Military experience,was able to rejoin his Regiment immediately on the outbreak of War but held back in the Regimental Depot for approximately three months whilst undergoing fitness and updating of skills training,prior to being sent to France,as a member of a draft, to bring the 2nd Battalion up to establishment i.e. replace casualties?

His terms of engagement and proficiency in the Field determining his rate of pay,at the time of his death.?

George

[Stephen White]

George

No need to apologise, I should have made it a little clearer as to whether he was a pre war regular or not.

I think its entirely possible that he rejoined his regiment on the outbreak of war and was held back for re-training. However his service records are amongst those that were lost so I can only guess. I think its interesting to note that even after discharge on the birth certificates of his chldren he was listing his occupation as file grinder and "ex Soldier 6th Royal Warwickshires". I do have a copy of his militia attestation papers so for that part of his military career I can be certain of dates, etc.

I would hope that his previous experience counted for something after all wasn't it old soldiers with experience that Kitchener was appealing to to replace losses in the BEF?, that could account for him going straight into a regular battalion.

I'm interested to know why someone would have thought that "private (2)" under rank on his death certificate meant that he was a "Private acting another rank", more people though thought it meant private 2nd class, hence they title of the thread.

[dycer]

Stephen,

Re 2nd.

Could it have been put on the Death Certificate to ensure your Grt/Grandmother received the correct rate of Widows Pension?

Just a stab in the dark.

George

[Stephen White]

My thoughts as well, I spent some time last night trawling through the pension records on Ancestry to see if there were any records for him and if so if the information in them could give any clues. Unfortunately I couldn't find anything for him and to be honest I don't know how complete the pension records that Ancestry have are.

Regards

Stephen