1/5th (City of London) Battalion (London Rifle Brigade)

[verdun]

I know that the 1/5th (City of London) Battalion (London Rifle Brigade) landed at Le Havre on November 5th 1914, but does anyone know if the battalion qualified as "Old Contemptibles" i.e. by seeing action before November 22nd? Thanks if you can help.

[Wienand Drenth]

I know that the 1/5th (City of London) Battalion (London Rifle Brigade) landed at Le Havre on November 5th 1914, but does anyone know if the battalion qualified as "Old Contemptibles" i.e. by seeing action before November 22nd? Thanks if you can help.

If I recall correctly, "Old Contemtibles" referred to the British Regular Army only, of which the 1/5th Bn, The London Regiment was not part of course.

Wienand

[dave ricketts]

Peter,

Although the comment was about the original BEF, I believe that the Association for Old Contemptibles took everybody with a 1914 Star, as my Great Grandfather was one of the London Rifle Brigade who landed at Le Havre at the beginning of November, and as I understand it, was a member of the OCA. He did not have the Clasp for the Star, so the LRB weren't in action by the required date.

Cheers,

Dave

[verdun]

Many thanks for these interesting replies. Dave's comment is especially helpful. I had always assumed that qualification for 'Old Contemptible' status was based on being entitled to the clasp/bar i.e. the cut-off date, rather than membership of the pre-war regular army.

[chrrip]

1/5th londons did qualify for the clasp for the 1914 Star as a battalion because they were in the line just before the qualifying date. They were attached to the 11th Brigade in Ploegsteert Wood and were deployed in half companies with 1 RB. As far as I can tell all but 20 odd men qualified for the clasp; the others were in hospital or sick. The 1914 Star Roll shows many men did apply for and were awarded the clasp and I would say most of the medals I have seen on the market have clasps. I have a nominall roll of the 851 men who crossed to france on 4.11.14 including many photos, obituaries, periods overseas, commissions, casualties etc Chris

[verdun]

Chris, This is really interesting. Would you happen to have any info on 300139 (Rifleman) Reginald H. Rand? His MIC shows no mention of the clasp and roses, but anything on him at all would be useful. Thanks again,

Peter

[chrrip]

Peter

Reginald Hays Rand was killed in action on 1st July 1916 during the abortive attack on Gommecourt. He joined the LRB in 1913 A Company. He went to france 4.11.14 and would almost certainly qualified for the clasp not the roses. He was one of the 25 per cent or so casualties of the 1914 men; no clasp as soldiers had to apply for them. Have a poor quality photo of him originally published in the Territorial Gazette. His memorial plaque is currently for sale on ebay.

Chris

[verdun]

Thanks again, Chris. But I don't understand why he could have qualified for the clasp and not the roses. Have I misunderstood this? I always assumed they were recognition of the same thing - i.e. being "under fire" before November 22nd. I thought the roses simply referred to what was attached to the ribbon when it was worn without the medal.

PS Having said that - when I inherited my grandfather's trio, his rosette was sown on to the ribbon with the 14 Star! (Or is there a difference between 'roses' and 'rosette' that has escaped me all these years???)

[dycer]

Peter,

As you say,Clasp was worn with Medal.

Roses worn with Ribbon.

The implication of Chris' point is that a Man,entitled to both but had died during the War would never wear his Ribbon,so need to issue with Medal and Clasp(if claimed,but that's another minefield ).

George

[verdun]

Thanks, George. Got it! Peter

[chrrip]

Thanks George

I recall the 1914 star roll endorsing my point in that roses (2) were not sent to next of kin of casualties ie only clasp issued; most entries specifically state clasp and roses despatched. Fortunate enough to possess two roses in their original envelope.

Peter, can you let me know who your relative was? If it was reginald his memorial plaque is currently on sale on ebay - two days to go

Chris

[verdun]

Hi Chris,

I have no relative from this unit, but I was interested in the plaque, before it moved out of my price range on eBay! I was simply curious to know whether this soldier had qualified for the clasp and it now seems likely that he did - but not for the roses! Also, the enquiry has helped clear up the 'grey area' of what constituted an Old Contemptible, officially and in reality.

Thanks again for your helpful comments. Peter