Need Help with Medal Card Remarks Please

[jilly66]

Hello, I've just found the second part of the Medal Card for my Grandfather. I've made an attempt to upload it with this message so hopefully it can be viewed okay. I have looked at the website that helps to interpret some of the information, but I do have some questions lingering about other parts of the cards.

My Grandfather was born in Lincolnshire and was listed in the Absent Voters List of Grimsby 1919 as follows:

CRISP, John Cyril Horace

16 College Street, Clps.* (*Cleethorpes)

10th Lincs. A.P.C., Surrey

Does this mean that although he was with the 10th Lincs. Army Pay Corps, he was situated in Surrey (which is where he met my Grandmother during the war)?

Where it says on the medal card, "Supt. of Bourne Police applies for BWVM af.(?) or df.(?) 12.6.24", does this mean that the Superintendant of the Bourne Police applied for the British War medal and Victory Medal around June 12, 1924 for John Crisp? My Grandfather was a Police Constable with the London Metropolitan Police and, if my assumption is correct, why would the Superindendant of the Bourne Police apply for John Crisps medals for him. Am I getting this completely wrong?

Would the address noted on the card be the address for John Crisp at that time?

Also, I'm not very clear what the 'Remarks' section indicates regarding IV 289 B.df 23.10.24. NW/1/16643. I think I get from this that his medals were issued 23rd October 1924, but what does IV 289 B.df refer to and the NW/1/16643 coding?

If anyone can help me with these questions, it would be hugely appreciated!

Thanks!

Jilly

[Stebie9173]

Yes, his police "boss" was applying for the medals on his behalf, and yes, that should be his address.

Since his address was in Bourne, Lincs. at the time, it would seem he spent some time in the Lincolnshire Police at Bourne.

The line reads "Superintendent of Bourne Poilice applies for British War & Victory medals d/. (dated) 12th June 1924.

The 2nd blue extract you have typed is a correspondence reference. Probably the only place any of this correspondence might exist today is on his service records, if they still exist.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

His number 10/468 suggests he was one of the original "Grimsby Chums" (who went to France in January 1916) and he appears on the Grimsby Chums list of medals and awards in Peter Bryants book "Grimsby Chums, The Story of the 10th Lincolnshires in the Great War" (page 200) for when he was awarded the Military Medal for gallantry.

It appears he then went to the Army Pay Corps, and finally onto the Royal Air Force. Having said that his Medal Card implies that the order of his serving was Lincolnshires - RAF - APC. This is in confict with his medal issuing which should have been from the last unit served with which is clearly the RAF on his medal roll codes.

His Royal Air Force service records should still be in existence and held at the National Archives. These could well help clear up any confusion.

EDIT: His Military Medal was published in the London Gazette of 9-7-1917. I would suggest that this may have been for gallantry at the Battle of Arras, possibly during the period of the 9th to 13th April 1917 when the 10th Lincolns as part of 101st Brigade of 34th Division were involved in the attack on "Le Point de Jour" near Bailleul.

His Majesty the KING has been graciously pleased to award the Military Medal for bravery in the Field to the undermentioned Non-Commissioned Officers and

Men:—

468 Pte. J. C. H. Crisp, Linc. R.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/301...upplements/6828

While I am not sure that the 185604 number is his RAF number, it seems way to high to be an APC number, so if it is then his RAF records would be in file reference AIR 79/1678.

AIR 79/1678

AIR Records created or inherited by the Air Ministry, the Royal Air Force, and related bodies

Division within AIR Records of the Department of the Master General of Personnel and the Air Member for Personnel

AIR 79 Air Ministry: Air Member for Personnel and predecessors: Airmen's Records

Record Summary

Scope and content {Men with RAF Service numbers} 185508 - 185620

For the record, these are the other Grimsby Chums awarded the Military Medal around the same time as Pte. Crisp, and Gazetted on 9-7-1917

1340 Pte. E. Platt, Linc. R.

25943 Pte. T. H. Snell, Linc. R.

1798 L/C. J. Williams, Linc. R.

Steve.

P.S. As a Police officer in Bourne in the 1920s, he would have been responsible for policing my 10-year old grandmother and her myriad brothers and sisters who lived just across the road from him at Wood View. Poor man....

[jilly66]

Hello Steve, A HUGE thank you for interpreting my Grandfather's medal card!! You made it all sound very clear.

I had often wondered for years if he was one of the 'Grimsby Chums', but could never confirm it until now! That certainly opens up the research aspect of it all.

Also, something else I was unsure about was when and where he became a policeman. I'd always thought he went to Surrey to serve during the war and ended up with the London Metro. Police from that point. I never realized that he'd been a policeman up in Lincolnshire too. His father, William Kirk Crisp, was also a police constable up there. What a coincidence - not to mention a small world! - that he lived across the road from your grandmother and family!

You are right about the RAF being his last unit served. I believe that the army transitioned into the beginnings of the R.A.F during that time and had previously thought that his army number would have transitioned over to the R.A.F. with him without it changing.

Thanks too for inserting the medal card onto your reply. I tried for hours last night to get the Remarks card inserted into my message, finally managing to do it and gave up with the other section as it was too big for the upload size! (First time using this website!)

Thank you again for all your help and guidance with this - very much appreciated!

Best wishes,

Jilly

[Steve Bramley]

Hi Jilly,

A search on the 1911 census site shows John Cyril Horace Crisp as living in the Grimsby district, born 1894 aged 17.

The 1901 census on Ancestry shows,

William K Crisp (head) aged 33 living at No 39, Park Road Alford, Lincs. Poilces Constable b. Haborough (Lincs).

Rosa Crisp (wife) aged 32 b. Keelby (Lincs).

John C.H. Crisp (Son) aged 7 born Alford.

Steve.

[jilly66]

Hi Steve, thanks for your reply concerning the census entries for John C. H. Crisp. I'd found these and for the 1911 census John was a clerk at that time. I'm always looking for more information on my Grandfather since he did a runner on my Grandmother when my father was very young. Unfortunately, my Grandmother got rid of a lot of photographs of him as she was so angry and as a result I only have one of him in his police uniform from the early 1940's.

I wonder if there would have been any photographs (ie. group photos) taken of the Army/RAF units that he was with during the war that have been kept in any of the archives?? It would be interesting to know if there were any taken of the Grimsby Chums.

Thanks again for your help!

Jilly

[Steve Bramley]

Jilly,

Just to add to what 'Stebie' says about Peter Bryant's book (which is certainly the best narrative) there is another book about the Chums by Peter Chapman which is full of photographs. I think it is out of print now but often crops up on e-bay.

Do you think that the superintendant may have been his father?

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Now that is an interesting suggestion, Steve.

Which could mean that John Crisp was in Surrey, after all.....

Steve.

[jilly66]

Hi both Steves!

That is definitely food for thought that the superintendant could have been his father, William Kirk Crisp. Unfortunately, I only have details up to 1902 of William K. Crisp's constabulary in the village of Alford (when he left after about 12 years continuous service there). He was a constable in those records up to that point. I'm actually surprised that someone else could apply for the medals and that is why I originally questioned it from the medal card. Why would that have been done and not John Crisp himself applying for them? Also why did the medals have to be applied for by the soldiers, wasn't there an automatic distribution to them? I will have to investigate further about William Crisps police career! As for the Surrey connection, my Grandmother lived in Wimbledon, Surrey and was part of one of those women's groups that helps with the war effort (the name of the organization escapes me at the moment...WAAF(?)). She worked in a canteen serving tea and that is how they met apparently.

I will have a look for the books that you mentioned. I was having a fascinating time reading about the Grimsby Chums on-line and I'm so pleased that you were able to confirm that he was one of them and that he was considered one of the 'original' Chums due to his number. I was equally fascinated to read about the mass grave that was found in France just a few years ago of some of the fallen soldiers of this unit and their skeletons showed that their arms were all linked.

Thank you for your thoughts and suggestions. It all helps to build up a picture of John Crisp's life. Unfortunately, when he left my Nan when my Dad was very young, she never mentioned his name again and tore up his pictures. He was as good as dead to the family (He left Nan for another woman). My father and his brothers were told that he was dead, only to find out that he had in fact been alive and living in Ipswich. By the time that they had found him, he'd died in 1965. I suppose in a way it is a shame that my late father missed out and so finding out about his life sort of fills in the void. I did make contact with the family John Crisp had left Nan to be with, after tracing John Crisp in the records and his place of death, but they didn't want to elaborate on John's life, which is a shame, but of course their prerogative.

Jilly