Welch 8 Bn

[Dannemois]

I wonder if anyone could add to my findings with regards to the 8^th Battalion of the Welsh Regiment on 8 August 1915. This was the date; Pte Jerry Connelly, 12054, 8^th Bn Welch Regiment was listed as missing presumed dead. I know his name appears on the Helles Memorial but I know nothing of the circumstances of his death.

Details from Long Long Trail: 8th (Service) Battalion (Pioneers) formed at Cardiff in August 1914 as part of K1 and attached to 40th Brigade in 13th (Western) Division. Embarked at Avonmouth on 15 June 1915 and landed at ANZAC cove on 5 August 1915.

[larney]

I have copies of the war diary for that period. It was a terrible day for the 8th Welsh. I am just about to switch the P.C off but if you want copies PM me your e-mail address and i'll send them to you tomorrow.

Cheers

Steve J.

[Jeff Pickerd]

I have some information on the 8th Battalion Royal Welch Fusiliers from August 1915, and my apologies for the delay in putting this forward, others matters having stood in the way.

It may seem odd that this information on a British Territorial Regiment stems from Australia, but the 8th RWF's were an integral part of the 3rd Light Horse Brigades advance on the Nek & Baby 700, 7th August, 1915, and it is only from the war diaries of the 3rd L.H. Bde & the Australian Official Histories that such information can be found.

It is probably easier if I just give you what I have recorded of RWF involvement from my chronological historical record of the 8th Light Horse Regiment, plus links to further records.

The Brigade Major, Lt Col J. Antill, on the evening of 4th August outlined the orders for the 3rd Brigade’s

part in the attack, Operation Order No.1, (Operational Order No. 1 by Brigadier General Hughes VD,

5th August 1915. AWM4 10/3/7) put together by himself and Col Hughes, to the Brigades officers.

These orders were very explicit and full of great detail, so much so that one officer complained at the

length of time it took to copy it all down.

The time for the charge was set at 4.30 a.m. of the 7th August. The actual assault was to he undertaken

by the 8th and 10th LHR’s, in four waves of 150 men each. The 9th LHR was to be held in reserve.

The 8th LHR would make up the first two lines and the 10th LHR the third and fourth. In addition to the

3rd LH.Bgde. there was to be two companies of the 8th Royal Welch Fusiliers and a battalion of the 8th

Cheshire Regiment, although at this time their role in the operation had not been defined.

The 8th Battalion Royal Welch Fusiliers and the 8th Service Battalion Cheshire Regiment arrived at Anzac

Cove during the evening from Lemnos Island. Both these regiments were from the 40th Brigade, a part

of the 13th Western Division (New Army), and had been attached to the 3rd Light Horse Brigade in No.

4 Section. Each regiment had sailed from England in June and arrived in Egypt, via Malta early in July.

Embarked for Lemnos the next day, arriving at Mudros Harbour on the 10th July. The 8th Battalion of

the RWF remained at Lemnos while the 8th Battalion Cheshire Regiment were sent to Cape Helles on

the 16th aboard the transport ship “Whitby Abbey” and landed at “V” beach. Moved up into the firing

line at Worcester Flat on the 19Th July until being relieved by the 8th RWF on the 25th and moved to

Gully Beach on the 28th. Both regiments returned to Lemnos on the 31st July until sailing for Anzac

Cove on the 4th August. The 8th RWF moved into bivouac at White Gully, the 8th Cheshire’s to below

Walker’s Ridge.

Headquarters, “A” and “B” Companies of the RWF, along with the 8th Cheshire Regiment, moved up

onto Russell’s Top in reserve on the 5th. “C” and “D” Companies RWF moved across Monash Gully up

onto Quinn’s and Courtney’s Posts in No. 3 Sector and attached to the 1st and 2nd Light Horse

Regiments.

The plan for the attack on Turkish positions at the Nek was that as soon as the 3rd Brigade had captured the front trenches at

the Nek, two companies of the 8th Battalion Welch Fusiliers would advance up the head of Monash

Gully between Russell’s Top and Pope’s, climb the slope on the right and commence a flank assault

upon the Chessboard, joining up with the 3rd LH Brigade on the left and the 1st LH Brigade on the right

from Pope’s Post.

According to C.E.W.Bean, the 8th Bn Royal Welch Fusiliers, with a party of engineers of the 71st Field Coy

had filed down Bully Beef Sap from Russell’s Top at 3.30 a.m., just before dawn on the 7th. They had

moved up Monash Valley and passed through the barbed wire at the farthest Anzac post. Here they

waited under cover for word that the Turkish front line trenches had been taken by the Light Horse.

One officer, 1 NCO & 10 men of the 71st Firld Coy Engineers were attached to the RWF for the advance up

Monash Gully.

Lt Col Hay, the commanding officer of the 8th Bn Royal Welch Fusiliers described his orders: “At 5.10

a.m. a message was received that the Australian Light Horse were holding the “A” line of trenches, and

I was instructed to move forward at once.” He split his troops into two parties, one, “B” Company

under Graham on the left, to attack the Turkish trenches at the head of Monash Gully and the other, “A”

Company under Capt Walter Lloyd on the right, to advance on the Chessboard in a flanking move to

join up with the 1st Light Horse Regiment attacking a hundred yards away to the east from Pope’s.

“B” Company advanced up a steep head of Monash Gully.

Due to the steep terrain and dense undergrowth they could only advance in parties of ten men at a time,

climbing up in single file. No sooner had the first party of “A” Company started to climb up they came

under fire from the Turks, with bombs being thrown from the trench at the edge of the cliff face. C.E.W.Bean states:

“The 1st Light Horse, watching from Pope’s, observed the Turks running forward from their trench,

rolling bombs down the cliff-face. The leading men of the Fusiliers were blown back and, in falling,

swept away those on the uncertain foothold below. The enemy, who seemed inclined to follow, were

instantly stopped by the light horse snipers, who quickly picked off a score of them. But the task of

climbing the washaway seemed hopeless, especially as the muzzles of two machine-guns could be seen

protruding over the parapet.”

The 8th Bn RWF War Diary states: “Steep slopes on both sides and thick with scrub. Casualties occurred

at once and the men falling back knocked over the men coming up behind. Leading platoons of “B”

Company sweeped with MG’s fire. Ordered to fall back and remain under cover in the Gully.”

”A” Company advanced up a steep washaway on the right and almost immediately at its starting point

came under heavy machine gun fire. Capt Walter Lloyd was shot and killed, his subaltern next to him

wounded, and every man in the first party being hit.

The Fusiliers met the same fire as the men of the 3rd Brigade had encountered and the attack failed. Lt Col

Hay found that the advance could only be made in single file and that any attempt to renew it was at

once met by the fire of a machine gun and by bomb-throwing, he abandoned the attack and reported to

Brigade Headquarters that he was held up.

From the 3rd L.H. Bde War Diaries there are two message reports of the 8th RWF written by Lt Col Hay:

The first: -

“To H.Q. 3rd L.H.Bde. With reference to your message re manner of individuals for special mention I

have none who exactly comes under the provision of your message but I should like to bring to notice

the name of Captain Walter Lloyd (killed in action).

This officers Company was the one that suffered most severely on the left advance from machine gun

fire & bombing – the whole of the keading platoon ( including Captain Lloyd) being killed and

wounded. I am therefore unable to any evidence as to the conduct of any individual, but Captain Lloyd

was previous to the attack, leading his company as I personally swa him at the head of it & his body

was subsequently found right in front with severn or eight others & I therefore consider that his name

deserves for mention for gallant leadership when exposed to an extremely heavy fire.

Signed, A. Hay Lt Col, O.C 5th RW Fusiliers.”

The second: -

“Report of part taken by 8th R.W. Fusiliers in the operation of 7th August.

Inaccordance with Bde Order the Battalion (less 2 Companies attached to 1st L.H. brigade) moved off at

3300 am & proceeded via Bully Beef Track to MONASH GULLY.

On arrival at the barbed wire barrier about 200 yards from the junction of BULLY BEEF TRACK &

MONASH GULLY the column halted to allow the R.E. detachment to cut the wire & clear the road.

After passing through the barrier the GULLY branches & according to my instructions already issued

“A” Company proceeded up the right hand branch while “B” Company continued up the main Gully.

Owing to the narrow front & difficulties to be anticipated in climbing up the frontiers of the Gully

Companies had been directed to send their men forward in parties of 10 at a time – 4 as bombers,

carriers and lighters & the other 6 as bayonet men.

Companies moved up their respective routes to as far as they could with safety whilethe bombardment

from 4.0 to 4.30 was in progress.

At 5.19 a.m. a message was received that the A.L.H. were holding the “A” line of trenches & I was

instructed to move forward at once.

My intention was that “B” Coy should proceed to the head of the Gully & work along C6a, while “A”

Coy was to get the trench at the junction of C6a & C6b & work along to the right.

I proceeded with “A” Company & almost as soon as the leading party of 10 men had commenced to

move bombs were thrown at them over the top of the parapet & the muzzles of 2 machine guns could

be clearly seen.

Casualties occurred at once & the men in falling swept men who were coming up off their feet as the

surface of the ground was loose earth. Bombs continued to be thrown & owing to the presence of the

machine guns I considered an advance that way impractible.

I therefore proceeded up the other route taken by “B” Coy. Here I also found that the advance had been

checked. The head of the company come under heavy machine gun fire almost at once, the Coy

Commander had been killed, the subaltern with the first platoon wounded & the whole of the first two

parties of 10 men killed or wounded.

A fresh attempt to advance was made but on the least movement on our part the machine gun opened

fire & in addition bombs were sent down from the trench. I therefore considered it was impossible to

attempt an advance, especially as owing to the thick scrub any advance could only be made in single

file.

The check was reported to G.H.Q. & instructions were shortly afterwards received to remain under

cover & await orders.

The Battalion remained in the Gully until 6.45 p.m. when it returned to Bivouac.

Signed, A. Hay Lieut Col

8th R.W. Fusiliers”

The 8th Bn RWF War Diary also states that Capt W. Lloyd KIA. 4 officers and 61 men, killed or

wounded.

The 3rd L.H.Bde. War Diary, list of casualties from the charge gives, Captain LLOYD 8th R.W. Fusiliers

killed. Lieut WILSON wounded. Lieut’s EDMINSTON and CARTER wounded. 11 other ranks killed,

46 wounded and 4 listed as missing.

The KIA list that I have recorded, and thank you, Pte Jerry Connelly, 12054, will now be added.

8th ROYAL WELCH FUSILIERS

Captain Walter LLOYD ‘B’ Company. M.I.D. Age 41.

Pte T. BROSTER No. 11882. Age 36.

Pte F. J. COOMBS No. 12516. Age 24.

Pte J. C. HARDING No. 11884. Age 39.

Pte George HARNEY No. 12376. Age 35.

Pte Alfred HICKINBOTHAM No. 19746.

Pte R. J. HUGHES No. 13175.

Pte Randall Foulkes MORRIS No. 11895. Age 23.

L/Cpl Douglas ROGERS No. 12785. ‘B’ Coy. Age 24.

Pte William John SMITH No. 12684. Age 24.

Sgt W. B. WILLIAMS No. 11910. Age 21.

From the official records -

(Officer's KIA – 1. O/R’s KIA – 10. Officers WIA – 3, O/R’s WIA – 51.)

The 8th Bn RWF War Diary also states that Capt W. Lloyd KIA. 4 officers and 61 men, killed or wounded.

Links to references quoted: -

The Australian War Memorial on-line Collections & Official Histories.

Australian Army War Diaries - First World War - Class 9 - Light Horse - Class 10/3 - 3rd Light Horse Brigade - AWM4 10/3/7 August 1915.

http://www.awm.gov.au/diaries/ww1/folder.asp?folder=1288

Official Histories - First World War - Volume II The Story of Anzac, Chapter XXI The Fients of August 7th, page 597 & Chapter XXII The Checking of the Advance on August 7th, page 634.

http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/volume.asp?conflict=1

For a refence to the plan for the advance on the Nek, map of operations and identification of C6a & C6b Turkish trenches, Mappimg Gallipoli.

http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/gmaps/index.asp

I would welcome any further information on the RWF covering its Gallipoli operations.

Trust this information is of some help to your question on the 8th Battalion RWF.

Jeff

[Dannemois]

I have some information on the 8th Battalion Royal Welch Fusiliers from August 1915, and my apologies for the delay in putting this forward, others matters having stood in the way.

It may seem odd that this information on a British Territorial Regiment stems from Australia, but the 8th RWF's were an integral part of the 3rd Light Horse Brigades advance on the Nek & Baby 700, 7th August, 1915, and it is only from the war diaries of the 3rd L.H. Bde & the Australian Official Histories that such information can be found.

It is probably easier if I just give you what I have recorded of RWF involvement from my chronological historical record of the 8th Light Horse Regiment, plus links to further records.

The Brigade Major, Lt Col J. Antill, on the evening of 4th August outlined the orders for the 3rd Brigade's

part in the attack, Operation Order No.1, (Operational Order No. 1 by Brigadier General Hughes VD,

5th August 1915. AWM4 10/3/7) put together by himself and Col Hughes, to the Brigades officers.

These orders were very explicit and full of great detail, so much so that one officer complained at the

length of time it took to copy it all down.

The time for the charge was set at 4.30 a.m. of the 7th August. The actual assault was to he undertaken

by the 8th and 10th LHR's, in four waves of 150 men each. The 9th LHR was to be held in reserve.

The 8th LHR would make up the first two lines and the 10th LHR the third and fourth. In addition to the

3rd LH.Bgde. there was to be two companies of the 8th Royal Welch Fusiliers and a battalion of the 8th

Cheshire Regiment, although at this time their role in the operation had not been defined.

The 8th Battalion Royal Welch Fusiliers and the 8th Service Battalion Cheshire Regiment arrived at Anzac

Cove during the evening from Lemnos Island. Both these regiments were from the 40th Brigade, a part

of the 13th Western Division (New Army), and had been attached to the 3rd Light Horse Brigade in No.

4 Section. Each regiment had sailed from England in June and arrived in Egypt, via Malta early in July.

Embarked for Lemnos the next day, arriving at Mudros Harbour on the 10th July. The 8th Battalion of

the RWF remained at Lemnos while the 8th Battalion Cheshire Regiment were sent to Cape Helles on

the 16th aboard the transport ship "Whitby Abbey" and landed at "V" beach. Moved up into the firing

line at Worcester Flat on the 19Th July until being relieved by the 8th RWF on the 25th and moved to

Gully Beach on the 28th. Both regiments returned to Lemnos on the 31st July until sailing for Anzac

Cove on the 4th August. The 8th RWF moved into bivouac at White Gully, the 8th Cheshire's to below

Walker's Ridge.

Headquarters, "A" and "B" Companies of the RWF, along with the 8th Cheshire Regiment, moved up

onto Russell's Top in reserve on the 5th. "C" and "D" Companies RWF moved across Monash Gully up

onto Quinn's and Courtney's Posts in No. 3 Sector and attached to the 1st and 2nd Light Horse

Regiments.

The plan for the attack on Turkish positions at the Nek was that as soon as the 3rd Brigade had captured the front trenches at

the Nek, two companies of the 8th Battalion Welch Fusiliers would advance up the head of Monash

Gully between Russell's Top and Pope's, climb the slope on the right and commence a flank assault

upon the Chessboard, joining up with the 3rd LH Brigade on the left and the 1st LH Brigade on the right

from Pope's Post.

According to C.E.W.Bean, the 8th Bn Royal Welch Fusiliers, with a party of engineers of the 71st Field Coy

had filed down Bully Beef Sap from Russell's Top at 3.30 a.m., just before dawn on the 7th. They had

moved up Monash Valley and passed through the barbed wire at the farthest Anzac post. Here they

waited under cover for word that the Turkish front line trenches had been taken by the Light Horse.

One officer, 1 NCO & 10 men of the 71st Firld Coy Engineers were attached to the RWF for the advance up

Monash Gully.

Lt Col Hay, the commanding officer of the 8th Bn Royal Welch Fusiliers described his orders: "At 5.10

a.m. a message was received that the Australian Light Horse were holding the "A" line of trenches, and

I was instructed to move forward at once." He split his troops into two parties, one, "B" Company

under Graham on the left, to attack the Turkish trenches at the head of Monash Gully and the other, "A"

Company under Capt Walter Lloyd on the right, to advance on the Chessboard in a flanking move to

join up with the 1st Light Horse Regiment attacking a hundred yards away to the east from Pope's.

"B" Company advanced up a steep head of Monash Gully.

Due to the steep terrain and dense undergrowth they could only advance in parties of ten men at a time,

climbing up in single file. No sooner had the first party of "A" Company started to climb up they came

under fire from the Turks, with bombs being thrown from the trench at the edge of the cliff face. C.E.W.Bean states:

"The 1st Light Horse, watching from Pope's, observed the Turks running forward from their trench,

rolling bombs down the cliff-face. The leading men of the Fusiliers were blown back and, in falling,

swept away those on the uncertain foothold below. The enemy, who seemed inclined to follow, were

instantly stopped by the light horse snipers, who quickly picked off a score of them. But the task of

climbing the washaway seemed hopeless, especially as the muzzles of two machine-guns could be seen

protruding over the parapet."

The 8th Bn RWF War Diary states: "Steep slopes on both sides and thick with scrub. Casualties occurred

at once and the men falling back knocked over the men coming up behind. Leading platoons of "B"

Company sweeped with MG's fire. Ordered to fall back and remain under cover in the Gully."

"A" Company advanced up a steep washaway on the right and almost immediately at its starting point

came under heavy machine gun fire. Capt Walter Lloyd was shot and killed, his subaltern next to him

wounded, and every man in the first party being hit.

The Fusiliers met the same fire as the men of the 3rd Brigade had encountered and the attack failed. Lt Col

Hay found that the advance could only be made in single file and that any attempt to renew it was at

once met by the fire of a machine gun and by bomb-throwing, he abandoned the attack and reported to

Brigade Headquarters that he was held up.

From the 3rd L.H. Bde War Diaries there are two message reports of the 8th RWF written by Lt Col Hay:

The first: -

"To H.Q. 3rd L.H.Bde. With reference to your message re manner of individuals for special mention I

have none who exactly comes under the provision of your message but I should like to bring to notice

the name of Captain Walter Lloyd (killed in action).

This officers Company was the one that suffered most severely on the left advance from machine gun

fire & bombing – the whole of the keading platoon ( including Captain Lloyd) being killed and

wounded. I am therefore unable to any evidence as to the conduct of any individual, but Captain Lloyd

was previous to the attack, leading his company as I personally swa him at the head of it & his body

was subsequently found right in front with severn or eight others & I therefore consider that his name

deserves for mention for gallant leadership when exposed to an extremely heavy fire.

Signed, A. Hay Lt Col, O.C 5th RW Fusiliers."

The second: -

"Report of part taken by 8th R.W. Fusiliers in the operation of 7th August.

Inaccordance with Bde Order the Battalion (less 2 Companies attached to 1st L.H. brigade) moved off at

3300 am & proceeded via Bully Beef Track to MONASH GULLY.

On arrival at the barbed wire barrier about 200 yards from the junction of BULLY BEEF TRACK &

MONASH GULLY the column halted to allow the R.E. detachment to cut the wire & clear the road.

After passing through the barrier the GULLY branches & according to my instructions already issued

"A" Company proceeded up the right hand branch while "B" Company continued up the main Gully.

Owing to the narrow front & difficulties to be anticipated in climbing up the frontiers of the Gully

Companies had been directed to send their men forward in parties of 10 at a time – 4 as bombers,

carriers and lighters & the other 6 as bayonet men.

Companies moved up their respective routes to as far as they could with safety whilethe bombardment

from 4.0 to 4.30 was in progress.

At 5.19 a.m. a message was received that the A.L.H. were holding the "A" line of trenches & I was

instructed to move forward at once.

My intention was that "B" Coy should proceed to the head of the Gully & work along C6a, while "A"

Coy was to get the trench at the junction of C6a & C6b & work along to the right.

I proceeded with "A" Company & almost as soon as the leading party of 10 men had commenced to

move bombs were thrown at them over the top of the parapet & the muzzles of 2 machine guns could

be clearly seen.

Casualties occurred at once & the men in falling swept men who were coming up off their feet as the

surface of the ground was loose earth. Bombs continued to be thrown & owing to the presence of the

machine guns I considered an advance that way impractible.

I therefore proceeded up the other route taken by "B" Coy. Here I also found that the advance had been

checked. The head of the company come under heavy machine gun fire almost at once, the Coy

Commander had been killed, the subaltern with the first platoon wounded & the whole of the first two

parties of 10 men killed or wounded.

A fresh attempt to advance was made but on the least movement on our part the machine gun opened

fire & in addition bombs were sent down from the trench. I therefore considered it was impossible to

attempt an advance, especially as owing to the thick scrub any advance could only be made in single

file.

The check was reported to G.H.Q. & instructions were shortly afterwards received to remain under

cover & await orders.

The Battalion remained in the Gully until 6.45 p.m. when it returned to Bivouac.

Signed, A. Hay Lieut Col

8th R.W. Fusiliers"

The 8th Bn RWF War Diary also states that Capt W. Lloyd KIA. 4 officers and 61 men, killed or

wounded.

The 3rd L.H.Bde. War Diary, list of casualties from the charge gives, Captain LLOYD 8th R.W. Fusiliers

killed. Lieut WILSON wounded. Lieut's EDMINSTON and CARTER wounded. 11 other ranks killed,

46 wounded and 4 listed as missing.

The KIA list that I have recorded, and thank you, Pte Jerry Connelly, 12054, will now be added.

8th ROYAL WELCH FUSILIERS

Captain Walter LLOYD 'B' Company. M.I.D. Age 41.

Pte T. BROSTER No. 11882. Age 36.

Pte F. J. COOMBS No. 12516. Age 24.

Pte J. C. HARDING No. 11884. Age 39.

Pte George HARNEY No. 12376. Age 35.

Pte Alfred HICKINBOTHAM No. 19746.

Pte R. J. HUGHES No. 13175.

Pte Randall Foulkes MORRIS No. 11895. Age 23.

L/Cpl Douglas ROGERS No. 12785. 'B' Coy. Age 24.

Pte William John SMITH No. 12684. Age 24.

Sgt W. B. WILLIAMS No. 11910. Age 21.

From the official records -

(Officer's KIA – 1. O/R's KIA – 10. Officers WIA – 3, O/R's WIA – 51.)

The 8th Bn RWF War Diary also states that Capt W. Lloyd KIA. 4 officers and 61 men, killed or wounded.

Links to references quoted: -

The Australian War Memorial on-line Collections & Official Histories.

Australian Army War Diaries - First World War - Class 9 - Light Horse - Class 10/3 - 3rd Light Horse Brigade - AWM4 10/3/7 August 1915.

http://www.awm.gov.au/diaries/ww1/folder.asp?folder=1288

Official Histories - First World War - Volume II The Story of Anzac, Chapter XXI The Fients of August 7th, page 597 & Chapter XXII The Checking of the Advance on August 7th, page 634.

http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/volume.asp?conflict=1

For a refence to the plan for the advance on the Nek, map of operations and identification of C6a & C6b Turkish trenches, Mappimg Gallipoli.

http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/gmaps/index.asp

I would welcome any further information on the RWF covering its Gallipoli operations.

Trust this information is of some help to your question on the 8th Battalion RWF.

Jeff

Many thanks Jeff, have just this minute printed it off so will need some time to read the details. Roy

[clive_hughes]

Jeff,

very sorry to say this, but the excellent account you've posted relates to the 8th Royal Welsh Fusiliers and not the 8th Welsh Regiment as per the first postings!

They had both started off in the 40th Brigade, 13th (Western) Division in August 1914, but from January 1915 the 8th Welsh became the Pioneer Battalion for the Divn. Both landed at ANZAC, but would have been differently employed on 8 August 1915.

Steve's war diary extract may give a better idea of what went on that day as far as they were concerned.

...having said which, I found your post fascinating and informative in its own right. The RWF are my local regiment (though the 1/6th were my local battalion, then over at Suvla Bay) and I too have an interest in their operations.

LST_164

[Jeff Pickerd]

LST,

Thanks for your comment, any information on the 8th Battalion Welch Regiment at Anzac would be greatly appreciated, for from my side of the world I can find no reference to the Regiment landing at Anzac from the 5th August, onwards.

For the August offensive at Anzac with the New Zealand & Australian Division, the ony Welch Regiment mentioned is the 8th Battalion Royal Welch Fusiliers, operating with the 1st & 3rd Light Horse Brigades as I have outlined in the previous account.

From all that I have been able to find, from records here in Australia and the information from other sources such as the Long, Long Trail, CWGC, etc, the details as posted by Dannemois would appear to relate to the 8th Battalion Royal Welch Fusiliers.

Admitedly my research is specific to the 3rd Light Horse Brigade, A.I.F. and my knowledge of the British units is limited.

Jeff

[clive_hughes]

hi Jeff, just got back to this...

Jerry Connelly 12054 was, according to the official Army casualty list Soldiers Died in the Great War, born and residing at Brithdir, Glamorgan and enlisted at Dowlais, Glamorgan. He was killed in action 8 August 1915 at Gallipoli, with the 8th Welsh Regiment.

His Medal Card confirms that he was with the Welsh Regt. and reported missing at Gallipoli on that date. His date of entering a Theatre of War is given as 4 August (the cards of Gallipoli men vary quite a bit as to what defines the entry date, even within the same unit: some go by the date their transport ship left the UK, others when they reached the Islands, and yet others the actual date they landed on the Peninsula).

His CWGC entry on the Helles Memorial confirms his unit and date of death, his father's address as 6 Herbert Street, Brithdir and his age as 20.

According to various sources, the 8th Welsh Regiment landed at Anzac on 5 August as the Pioneer Battalion of the 13th Division: to hand I have Brigr. E.A.James' British Regiments 1914-1918; and R.W.Gould's Locations of British Cavalry Infantry and Machine Gun Units 1914-1924. , and the Long, Long Trail website of which the Forum is an offshoot.

The 40th Brigade comprised the 8th Cheshire Regt., 8th Royal Welsh Fusiliers; 4th South Wales Borderers; and 5th Wiltshire Regt. Their dates of arrival at Gallipoli by cross-checking in the above sources are approx. 15-16 July.

The Long, Long Trail website states that the 13th Division reached Mudros by 4 July, and its infantry units were landed at Helles between 6 and 16 July to relieve 29th Division; returning to Mudros at the end of the month the entire divn. was then re-landed at Anzac between 3-5 August.

I underline the info above because going by the sources, the initial Helles deployment was only of the three Infantry brigades - not the divisional pioneers (8th Welsh), who were not assault infantry but more an armed labour unit. They seem to have remained on Mudros until the whole Divn was redeployed at Anzac early in August, hence the disparity in landing dates.

I don't know whether a 13th Divisional History was ever published, and my other Gallipoli/Welsh Regiment sources to hand are minimal, so I can't say much more. I can't tell how the 8th Welsh were deployed at Anzac in August 1915.

On 4th August the 8th RWF, however, went with the 8th Cheshire and Australian troops at Quinns & Courtney's, while the other two battalions of the Brigade seized and held Damakjelik Bair. The RWF's Regimental History mentions the operation against the Nek, but in less detail than your posting.

Apologies for the length of this, but I needed to clarify that Connelly was definitely a soldier of the 8th Welsh Regt., not the 8th RWF, so would not have participated in the operation carried out by the 2 companies of the latter regiment against the Nek.

LST_164

[Jeff Pickerd]

LST,

Thank you for the additional detail. It would now seem that we owe it to Pte Connelly and the 8th Welch Regiment to find all we can of their service at Gallipoli, and if they did operate in the Anzac Sector.

If I can find any information of their service from over here I will place it at this topic, but hopefully others with greater knowledge of the Regiment will be able to give a full account of the Regiments history.

Jeff

[larney]

Hi,

LST is correct, in that Jerry Connelly served, and was killed with, the 8th Battalion, the Welsh Regiment, and not the 8th Royal Welsh Fusiliers, which is a totally different battalion (and regiment).

The War Diary copies which I e-mailed to Dannemois have a full account of the fighting that the 8th Welsh, who were Pioneers to the 13th (Western) Division, took part in during the month of August, after landing on ANZAC at 2.00 a.m. on 4 August 1915.

They bivouaced at Shrapnel Gully, before moving to Chailak Dere on the night 6/7 August. There they bivouaced on Rhododendron Ridge for the night, and on 8 August moved in to support the Gloucesters and the Wellington Regiment in their attack on Chunuk Bair. Advancing in daylight, the 8th Welsh came under fire from their flanks, while they attempted to deploy. Upon reaching forward positions on Chunuk Bair, the 8th Welsh dug in alongside the Gloucesters and Wellingtons, and here suffered even more casualties, from both well sited Turkish machine-guns, and dozens of snipers situated in overlooking positions, which led to the need to reinforce the three battalions with the Otago Regiment. The four battalions spent the next two days on consolidating their meagre gains, where they remained for the coming weeks, under constant sniper fire.

The 8th Welsh alone lost 157 men killed that day of 8 August alone, none of whom were afforded the luxury of a grave, bar one man who is buried at The Farm Cemetery, ANZAC (Private Henry Davies, of Llanelli). Casualties including wounded amounted to well over half their strength going into action that day, with only 7 Officers and 274 Other Ranks left to answer the roll call the following morning. Over 270 men were reported as missing!

Altogether 8th Welsh lost 201 men killed on Gallipoli up until they were evacuated in December 1915. This shows how heavy and bloody the fighting of 8 August was for the battalion, to have 75% of their casualties for an entire campaign on one day must have been terrible, yet they were far from alone in this, with many of the Australian battalions also getting hammered on 8 August.

8th RWF on the other hand were also with 13th (Western) Division, but I have no information on them, as the Welsh Regiment is my local regiment, and hence main interest.

SteveJ.

[clive_hughes]

Steve,

many thanks for posting that. Had no idea they got so badly hit that day (I don't even have access to Whitelock & Marden's History of the Welsh Regt. ). A totally different Anzac experience to the 8th RWF, clearly.

LST_164

[Jeff Pickerd]

Steve,

Many thanks for posting that account of the 8th Welch Regiment.

Using the information you have put forward I have now found a brief account of that action in the Australian Official History, Volume III, The Story of Anzac, Chapter XXII, The Checking of the Advance on August 7th, pages 651 & 676, C.E.W. Bean. Your account gives far more information than that of the official history.

With my earlier search for information pertaining to the 8th Welch Regiment, I had not extended that to look under "Pioneers", and since they were with the New Zealanders, hadn't thought to extend the search further out to the left of the Anzac sector.

You have now given the 8th Welch Regiment their due recognition for the desperate fight they put up on the 8th August, and beyond.

Jeff

[Dannemois]

Steve,

Many thanks for posting that account of the 8th Welch Regiment.

Using the information you have put forward I have now found a brief account of that action in the Australian Official History, Volume III, The Story of Anzac, Chapter XXII, The Checking of the Advance on August 7th, pages 651 & 676, C.E.W. Bean. Your account gives far more information than that of the official history.

With my earlier search for information pertaining to the 8th Welch Regiment, I had not extended that to look under "Pioneers", and since they were with the New Zealanders, hadn't thought to extend the search further out to the left of the Anzac sector.

You have now given the 8th Welch Regiment their due recognition for the desperate fight they put up on the 8th August, and beyond.

Jeff

What exactly was the role of the 'Pioneers'

and they Embarked at Avonmouth on 15 June 1915, anyone know the name of the ship/s that transported the Pioneers

[p j williams]

found this while starting a file on him

Private Jeremiah Connolly was 20 years of age when he lost his life serving with the Welsh Regiment at Gallipoli; his name is commemorated on the Helles Memorial in Turkey (Panel 140 to 144).

Jeremiah Connolly, known as Jerry, son of Irish immigrant John Connolly and his wife Mary Foley, was born in Dowlais in the parish of Merthyr Tydfil in 1895. Named after his paternal grandfather the young Jerry spent his formative years in Victoria Street, Dowlais. By 1911, his mother Mary had died and his father John had moved to Brithdir with four of his children taking up residence at 6 Herbert Street. Jerry, at age 16, was the eldest and was employed underground as a labourer; his siblings Maggie 13, Agnes 11 and John 10 were all at school.

He enlisted at Dowlais into the Welsh Regiment and joined the 8th Battalion as Private 12054. Formed at Cardiff the battalion moved to Park House Camp, Tidworth attached to 40th Brigade in 13th (Western) Divison. They were at Chiseldon in October and Bournemouth in December. In January 1915 the 8th became the Pioneer Battalion to the 13th Division. In February they moved to Aldershot.

The battalion embarked at Avonmouth on 15th June 1915 for Mudros Bay on the Greek Island of Limnos which was the main staging post for the Gallipoli landings. The Battalion War Diary for the period tell us: “his battalion had landed on Anzac Cove at 2.00 am on August 4th and they bivouaced at Shrapnel Gully, before moving on to Chailak Dere on the night of 6th/7th August. There they bivouaced on Rhododendron Ridge for the night; the following day they moved in to support the Gloucester and Wellington Regiments in their attack on Chunuk Bair. Advancing in daylight, they came under fire from their flanks while they attempted to deploy. Upon reaching forward positions, the 8th Welsh dug in and suffered even more casualties from Turkish machine-guns and snipers situated in overlooking positions.” The Welsh lost 157 men killed that day of 8th August, none of whom were afforded the luxury of a grave. At roll call the following morning, over 270 men were reported as missing! Jerry Connolly’s Medal Card confirms that he was one of those reported “missing, presumed dead, on 8th Aug 1915”.

http://www.gelligaerhistoricalsociety.co.uk/index.php/brithdir-ww1-detail/79-brithdir-connollyja?

[clive_hughes]

Thanks for the additional info, pj

Clive

[Glyn Watts]

I am only now finding this site. I am the great grandson of Private Henry Davies the only soldier recognised with a grave and buried at Farm Cemetery.

It is quite humbling. I would love to visit his grave

[clk]

Hi Glyn,

 

2 hours ago, Glyn Watts said:

I would love to visit his grave

 

If you can't do that in the near future, it looks like the good folk at British War Graves might be able to provide you with a digital image of his grave marker on a free of charge basis - link.

 

Regards

Chris

Edited 10 December , 2018 by clk

[richards13]

History of the Welsh Regiment reads as follows:

 

The 8th Welsh (Lieutenant-Colonel J. A. Bald, Indian Army, commanding), had left Lemnos on 4th August, and arrived at Anzac Cove the next clay, 26 officers and 749 other ranks strong. On 6th August the Battalion marched out of Anzac Cove at 10 p.m., and arrived on 7th August at 7.20 am, at the mouth of Chailak Dere, where it was in Reserve. At 10 a.m., Lieutenant-Colonel Bald, Major Yates, and "A" Company went to the Headquarters of the New Zealand Brigade up the Dere. Colonel Bald went forward with a platoon to reconnoitre for an attack the next day, and was severely wounded, Major Yates taking his place. At 5 p.m. the remainder of the Battalion joined Headquarters and "A" Company.

8th August witnessed a gallant attempt to capture Chunuk Bair. Th position reached and held by the Right Assaulting Column at dawn on 7th August was known as the Apex. It was a depression in the ridge, behind which some protection from gun and rifle fire was obtainable. In front a narrow Nek some 400 or 500 yards long leads to the summit of the main ridge at Chunuk Bair.

Before dawn on 8th August the summit of the ridge was heavily bombarded by monitors, cruisers, and some 18-pounders. At 4.15 a.m., while it was still dark, the Right Column assaulted, the Wellington Regiment leading, the 7th Gloucesters in close support, and hehmd them the 8th Welsh and the Auckland Mounted Rifles. The Wellington Regiment crossed the Apex ridge in the dark, dashed across the intervening 400 yards and were in the Turkish trench at the summit without many casualties. The 7th Gloucesters following spread to both flanks, but by now the whole crest was alive with the enemy, and the Battalion was raked from both flanks.

The 8th Welsh moved forward, "A" and "D" Companies in first line, "B" and "C" in second line, at 50 paces distance and interval. As they crossed the Apex ridge and attempted to deploy, staggering fire struck them from both the right and the left. It was now dawn, and the Turks could see them plainly. Major Yates with a small party got on 300 yards to the right of the Wellington Battalion. Leaders fell fast, and the rest of the Battalion was checked. A gap now existed between Major Yates’ party and the Wellington Regiment. Major Stevens, quickly collecting a few men, rushed up to fill it. By degrees practically the whole of Major Yates’ party was put out of action from the flank, and the survivors joined Major Stevens.

Here also came a few of the Gloucesters. They had lost all their officers, and all their senior N.C.O.s. The Diary of the 8th Welsh relates that a trench full of snipers who had been doing great execution was at length spotted by the Battalion, and every man accounted for. For the remainder of the day there were incessant attacks, mainly by bombing from the flanks, and three times the Wellington Regiment, losing heavily, had to give way slightly. In the afternoon the Auckland Rifles managed to get forward and give some support, but it was a battered force which hung on grimly till darkness supervened and relief came in the form of the Otago Battalion.

The 8th Welsh were withdrawn to the shelter of the gully in reserve. At 8a.m. on the following morning—9th August—the Battalion mustered only 5 Officers (including M.O. and Q.M.) and 274 Other Ranks—a sufficient testimony to the severity of the fighting.

The rest of the story is soon told. The centre and the left of the attack on the 8th August made little headway, the left especially suffering on their flank from the influx of fresh Turkish troops, who should have been engaged in repelling the Suvla attack.

The 9th August witnessed a dramatic scene. The 6th Gurkhas and two Companies, 6th S. Lancashires, scaling, during the night, the almost precipitous cliffs below the ridge, rushed in on top of a tremendous bombardment by naval and field guns, which ceased at 5.16 a.m. Bayoneting the surprised and shaken Turks, they found themselves on the saddle between Chunuk Bair and Hill Q and saw lying below them the blue ribbon of the Dardanelles. The triumph was, alas!, but short lived. Pursuing the flying enemy over the ridge the victors were shattered by the explosion of six large shells amongst them—shells fired whether by friend or foe has never been established—but shells which spelt disaster. The remnants straggled back to the sumnut—Turkish reinforcements counter-attacked and the ridge was lost. It is doubtful f it ever could have been retained, for the four fresh Battalions under Brigadier-General Baldwin which were to have passed through the decimated troops on the shoulder of Chunuk Bair, and attacked at dawn, lost their way in the dark. When they attacked a little later, they found the enemy now too strong to be rushed.

During the night of 9th-10th August, the 6th Loyals and 5th Wiltshires relieved on Rhododendron Ridge the battered survivors, still clinging to their trenches, but the battle was now decided. Freed from attack on the Suvia front the Turks massed some 12,000 men behind the ridge and turning every available gun on the two weak Battalions swept them off the spur. Then, attacking everywhere over the crest, the enemy swarmed forward, offering splendid targets to our guns and machine guns, which took full toll of them. But still the Turks caine on, calling on the name of Allah. Hand-to-hand fighting took place in many spots. Our lines were broken here and there, but they were restored by counter-attacks, and finally the victory rested with us. It was estimated that not more than 500 Turks got back out of the 3,000 or 4,000 who charged over the crest. It was a worthy finale to an epic struggle, in which the British casualties were estimated at 12,000 men.

Thereafter the struggle developed into trench warfare, the British holding the country from Rhododendron Ridge to Asma Dere.

The casualties in the 8th Welsh in this action were:

 

KILLED.—Captains C. P. Gwyer (Adjutant), W. A. Harding, D. Digges la Touche, and N. J. Howells, Lieutenant J. C. Morris, 2nd-Lieutenants A. E. Jones, S. E. Jones, J. C. Marson and J. N. Lewis, 9 Officers and 37 Other Ranks.

MISSING.—266 Other Ranks, most of whom must be reckoned as dead.

WOUNDED.—Lieutenant-Colonel J. A. Bald. Major R P. Yates, Captains F. W. Gransmore (Reg.), I. S. Jenkins, and C. Williams, 2nd-Lieutenants W. E. Evans, J. Bengough, R L Godfrey and T. N. Baines, 9 Officers and 141 Other Ranks.

 

[peter blackwell]

On 20/03/2009 at 20:43, larney said:

I have copies of the war diary for that period. It was a terrible day for the 8th Welsh. I am just about to switch the P.C off but if you want copies PM me your e-mail address and i'll send them to you tomorrow.

Cheers

Steve J.

thanks very much 

[Scalyback]

11 hours ago, peter blackwell said:

thanks very much regards pete

 

Larney has not been seen for two years. Might be an idea to delete your email on an open forum. If you have more than five posts, private message me and confirm if you want information on 8th RWF or 8th Welsh. They are separate regiments.