Armed merchant cruisers / Armed merchantmen

[cahoehler]

Guys

The SANDF Documentation Centre has a large quantity of prints covering the construction of a new drydock at Simon's Town between 1903 and 1905. These prints are large (A4 size) and are of a very high standard.

One print shows an unidentified armed merchant cruiser / armed merchantman in the drydock and two guns are clearly visible. The ship is large (nearly fills the dry dock) and seems 'modern'. The photograph is definitely dated as 1905.

Are such (ie AMC) ships be identifiable?

I will post an image when I receive it.

Thank you.

Carl

[ph0ebus]

Guys

The SANDF Documentation Centre has a large quantity of prints covering the construction of a new drydock at Simon's Town between 1903 and 1905. These prints are large (A4 size) and are of a very high standard.

One print shows an unidentified armed merchant cruiser / armed merchantman in the drydock and two guns are clearly visible. The ship is large (nearly fills the dry dock) and seems 'modern'. The photograph is definitely dated as 1905.

Are such (ie AMC) ships be identifiable?

I will post an image when I receive it.

Thank you.

Carl

Hi,

You are referring to South Africa, yes? If so that may narrow the pool a bit. Perhaps it was built for the Navy? The picture will indeed likely be helpful, too.

-Daniel

[cahoehler]

Daniel

It is indeed South Africa but it is post Anglo-Boer War and pre-Union (1910) when the Cape was a British Colony and it would be another 50 years before the naval base at Simon's Town was totally South African.

Carl

[ionia]

I don't think that there would have been any British AMCs in commission in 1905. It will be interesting to see the photograph.

[joseph]

The Admiralty appointed a committee in 1912 to consider the arming of merchant ships and decided it would be feasible. Rear Admiral HH Campbell was ordered to carry out the necessary arrangements. In April 1913 the first was the liner Aragon of the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company. Armed with two 4.7inch guns facing aft.

Prior to this most ships built in the UK since 1880 had strengthened decks to mount guns.

Regards Charles

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Part of the financing for the 'modern' Royal Mail Ships Mauritania and Lusitania (both launched 1906) came from the government to have them adapted to be AMCs. Possibly there was work to trial fit some guns at the naval dockyard at that time.

Here are some files at Kew for 1900-1910. There seem to be no relevent matches for Simon's Town.

MT 23/136 Mobilisation of Armed Merchant Cruisers. 1901

MT 23/167 Armed Merchant Cruisers: Admiralty policy. 1903

MT 23/175 Armed Merchant Cruisers. Procedure to be observed by Cunard Line, when mobilised. 1904

MT 23/177 Armed Merchant Cruisers. Instructions regarding Fleet Auxiliaries. 1904

MT 23/185 Armed Merchant Cruisers. Officer to superintend fitting out. 1905

MT 23/218 Armed Merchant Cruiser. Tender form and Charter Parties. Revised, to make Charter B applicable to all Commissioned Mercantile Fleet Auxiliaries and Charter A to correspond with the revised Transport Regulations. 1908

[cahoehler]

. . . post an image when I receive it.

Guys

The dry dock is about 240 metres in length.

Carl

[ph0ebus]

Hi Carl,

Hmmm....two funnels, four masts, built in 1905 in South Africa....and what is that structure behind the bridge?

Let the search begin!

-Daniel

[cahoehler]

. . . in 1905 in South Africa

Daniel

This ship was in Cape Town during the official opening of the Selborne Dry Dock in 1905 and this is why the photograph has been dated to 1905.

Here is a 2009 image from Google Earth with SAS Mendi in this dry dock.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3464/336729...37278f61d_o.png

Carl

[joseph]

Carl,

It does not fit into the way the British Armed thier merchant vessels in 1905, and unless it states in one or Per Mars references for Armoured Cruisers that they put guns on one in 1905 its not British.

If you had posted that photo with no date I would have said HMS Himalaya in 1915, she had four masts two funnels was about that size and had 8 4.7inch guns. Sailed from Simonstown from late 1915 to the end of the war.

Regards Charles

[ionia]

The photo of the ship in dock cannot be 1905. This ship has extensive wireless aerials.

[ionia]

The HIMILAYA was initially hired at Hong Kong in 1914 as an AMC and was armed with 4.7" guns. The Admiralty purchased the ship in June, 1916 and she was fitted with 6-inch guns, an aircraft deck and a seaplane at Simonstown, South Africa. She spent the rest of the war in East African waters and on convoy duties.

[ph0ebus]

Hi,

I think that while it certainly resembles Himalaya, I believe it is a different ship. For starters, note the cutout just behind the forward mast in the Himalaya pitcure that is absent in the drydock photo. Ionia, the structure I referred to in my earlier post is for wireless, right? Perhaps the ship is listed in the Marconi archive. It resembles RMS Carmania or Caronia, but there are too few masts.

What about the SS Zeeland?

-Daniel

[cahoehler]

. . . the official opening of the Selborne Dry Dock in 1905 . . .

Guys

Thanks a lot.

As so often in South African military history there are gaps and inconsistencies.

The construction of the harbour works at Simon's Town was a large project and stretched over 10 years and despite the construction record, this image is in fact then from a later (ie post wireless) period and moreover after 1910.

From the 1911 Encyclopaedia Brittanica - a text is at http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Simon's_Town

Opening from the basin is a dry dock, 750 ft. in length on blocks, with an entrance 95 ft. wide and having 30 ft. over the sill at low water [ordinary] spring tides. The foundation stone of the dry dock was laid in November 1906 by the Earl of Selborne, after whom it is named, and the dock was opened in November 1910 by the Duke of Connaught. .

Sorry about the original date of 1905.

A large number of ship's badges were painted on the dry dock walls and these are now being restored and documented.

Carl

[cahoehler]

A portion of the original 24MB TIFF image.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3444/336979...c728a0386_o.jpg

Carl

[Ralph Currell]

Hi Carl,

The ship looks a lot like one of the White Star Line's 'Big Four' liners (Adriatic, Baltic, Celtic or Cedric), but with the paint scheme and armament (4 guns per side?) I would have guessed that was an early WWI photo.

http://www.greatships.net/scans/PC-BA11.jpg

Regards,

Ralph

[ionia]

[quote name='Carl Hoehler' date='Mar 19 2009, 10:31 PM' post='114355The dry dock is about 240 metres in length.

Carl

My nomination would be the HMS CELTIC, hired as an AMC 1914-16.Armament 8 x 6". 20904 tons. Built 1901.

[joseph]

Daniel,

"note the cutout just behind the forward mast in the Himalaya pitcure"

That is the shadow of its forward boat.

Ionia,

Himalaya was refitted in the UK and went out to Simonstown late 1915, the photo I posted was taken in Simonstown.

Regards Charles

[ph0ebus]

Hi Charles,

Thanks for the clarification...it was the scale of your photo that threw me off. Do you have a closeup view of the Himalaya's bridge? Ionia, I think the Celtic, based on the photo provided, seems like a spot-on match, but seeing a better, close-up configuration of the Himalaya's 'superstructure' and bridge configuration might persuade me otherwise. Certainly a better visual match than the Zeeland, anyway. As they say, 'close' only matters in hand grenades and horseshoes...

-Daniel

[Ralph Currell]

Charles,

I think Himalaya's bridge is too far forward to be the ship in Carl's photo:

Celtic seems a better match:

Ph0ebus, that structure you were asking about (the raised platform between the 2nd mast and the funnels) is a compass platform.  It's a fairly distinctive feature on liners of the period built by Harland & Wolff.

Regards,

   Ralph

[joseph]

Ralph,

Im with you on that, more likely HMS Celtic.

Regards Charles

[cahoehler]

Charles, Daniel, Ionia and Ralph.

Thanks for everything.

I also saw a reference to Cedric being an AMC. Is there a reason that this ship was excluded? (only for curiosity).

What is the difference between an 'auxiliary cruiser' and an AMC?

Thanks again

Carl

[joseph]

Carl,

'Auxiliary Cruiser'....... German and French

AMC.......... Royal Navy

Regards Charles

[ph0ebus]

Ph0ebus, that structure you were asking about (the raised platform between the 2nd mast and the funnels) is a compass platform.  It's a fairly distinctive feature on liners of the period built by Harland & Wolff.

Regards,

   Ralph

Acha.

I am not as familiar with Harland and Wolff ships, but will park that fact away for future use...many thanks! May be helpful with future rounds of 'Name...That...Ship!".

-Dan

[ionia]

Charles, Daniel, Ionia and Ralph.

Thanks for everything.

I also saw a reference to Cedric being an AMC. Is there a reason that this ship was excluded? (only for curiosity).

What is the difference between an 'auxiliary cruiser' and an AMC?

Thanks again

Carl

I nominated CELTIC but her sister CEDRIC would be an equally good choice - better in some ways. I can find no details of her service as an AMC apart from the the parameter dates. If she was on convoy duty then she could well have been docked in Simonstown. CELTIC seems to have spent her career as an AMC with the 10th Cruiser Squadron (a long way from the Cape) but some of these ships were detached from time to time to search for raiders.