UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECT

[centurion]

The drawings posted by Cnock whilst quite accurate as far as they go are misleading as there was a considerable variation in the style of these bombs and only some of these are shown. I have therefore produced a Carbonit guide. I would repeat my question to Cnock - does he know of any manufacturer of bombs with the same tear drop design? I will prepare a selection of cuts from photos to show the various different styles and post later. However some of the variations can be seen on the photos I have already posted.These bombs remained in service until mid 1916 with all air arms. I can find no evidence of bombs at this time being made by any other manufacturer. From mid 1916 the Carbonit range of bombs was replaced by a new range of bombs to a standard design, these were very different from the Carbonit range being slender and of a very stream lined design (although research in the 1950s as part of the development of supersonic aircraft now suggests that the Carbonit design had better aerodynamics qualities!).

Appearance

Although supposed to be of a standard design the Carbonit range did contain many variations as can be verified by examination of many photographs. These may represent developments over the life of this range of missiles (and Alex Imrie in German Bombers of WW1 does refer to “early Carbonit bombs” possibly indicating changes over time), however I can find no definitive evidence on this and the variations may simply reflect different manufacturing practice in a number of factories.

The first variation is in the manner in which the bomb tail ring is fastened to the body of the bomb. There are three distinct methods (and one of these has a sub variation). They do not represent variations according to the weight of the bomb as bombs of the same size can be seen with different tail styles. These can be described as:

Four rod tail.

The tail ring is mounted on four rods or tubes welded to the inside of the ring and in turn bolted to the body of the bomb (the end of the rod is flattened to allow this). The tail ring is clear of the fusing propeller on the bomb.

Two strap tail

The tail ring is mounted on two flat metal straps (thin bars) fastened to the outside of the ring (probably welded) and bolted onto the body of the bomb. There is a sub variation on this as some photos exist where the strap is not bolted directly to the body of the bomb but to a spacer. In the two strap tail the fusing propeller is inside the tail ring.

The strapless tail

The tail ring has no visible means of support which implies some kind of fitting onto the bomb that is concealed by the ring. One photo of a strapless tail bomb being loaded suggests that it may have been attached to small fins just below the fusing propeller possibly by rods or metal bars but the picture is not clear enough to show much detail.

Photos show wide range of variations in the depth and circumference of the tail ring itself, this seems to be independent of the method of attachment.

The next area of variation is the bomb nose. There are two main variants but these do not seem to be related to the different tail styles as different nose styles can be seen on bombs with one tail type and vice versa. Nose styles are:

The cone

A cone is fitted to the nose of the bomb. There are considerable variations in this as some are very shallow cones that do not substantially alter the line of the nose whilst others stand quite proud. I can find no evidence as the the purpose of the cone.

The baby's bottom

The nose of the bomb is a smooth unbroken curve.

Fusing

In addition to the visible variations in the appearance of the bombs there were developments in fusing. The fusing propeller was restrained by a pin. When the bomb was hand dropped the observer would simply pull out the pin before dropping the bomb over the side. When bomb racks were adopted (especially for the larger bombs in the range) the pin was tied by a cord to a hook on the rack so that the pin was pulled out when the bomb was dropped – this was found not to be entirely satisfactory and a spring loaded disc was adopted, this wedged the blades of the fusing propeller but would be blown clear by the passage through the air as the bomb dropped.

Bomb racks

The Carbonit bombs were dropped vertically. Each bomb had a wire handle fitted across the tail ring, on small bombs this was used by the observer to dangle the bomb over the side of the aircraft before release. With larger bombs this was used to fasten the bomb to a rack from which it hung vertically usually inside a fuselage or a Zeppelin bomb bay. On some aircraft the bombs were carried externally hanging vertically below the fuselage. The shape of the Carbonit bomb did not lend itself to horizontal racks however this at least one photo of one carried on an improvised rack beneath an Ago twin boom C type. The method used is identical to that used for the later streamlined post Carbonit bombs. The bomb is held against two curved bars, mounted at right angles on a horizontal rod, by two straps or cords. In the case of the Carbonit these pass round the belly of the bomb and the tail ring respectively. Each strap is fastened to either end of the curved bar, one end being secured by a pin, pulling the bomb release wire pulls the pin out and gravity does the rest. At no time did German bomb racks suspend the bomb by holed in fins or plates and one can only surmise that the bomb under discussion in this thread has at some time been displayed by being hung from a ceiling – possibly in a local pub?

[Cnock]

Post 23 of Martin with drawing, still nothing to do with Carbonit bomb

I repeat I looked at maybe 100 sketches of different WWI bombs, (German, British, French) not one matching with the bomb found by Martin

Regards,

Cnock

[centurion]

Post 23 of Martin with drawing, still nothing to do with Carbonit bomb

I repeat I looked at maybe 100 sketches of different WWI bombs, (German, British, French) not one matching with the bomb found by Martin

Regards,

Cnock

I'd be more convinced if you'd answer my question - again - do you know of any other German bomb manufacturer of the period?

Ignore the fin near the nose - clearly an addition so someone could hang it from their ceiling.

[centurion]

Taking that drawing, removing the plates with the holes (probably added so some one could display the thing) and adding a ring tail you get a bomb well within the variations of Carbonit bombs

[Cnock]

at first my drawing was not correctly labelled,

now my drawings are misleading,

what is next?

I thought the goal of this topic was identifying Martin's bomb,

if there are different types of carbonit bombs ( which I don't deny) show me the one matching with Martin's bomb.

the rest is blablabla.

Regards,

Cnock

[centurion]

at first my drawing was not correctly labelled,

now my drawings are misleading,

what is next?

I thought the goal of this topic was identifying Martin's bomb,

if there are different types of carbonit bombs ( which I don't deny) show me the one matching with Martin's bomb.

the rest is blablabla.

Regards,

Cnock

For goodness sake just answer my question

[ddavemanc]

Hi all

I have been following your discusion and saw this picture on flicker. Dont know if it's of any help?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29007475@N08/...n/pool-greatwar

Regards

Dave

[eviltaxman]

For goodness sake just answer my question

This thread is going no where, short of an argument. Either agree to disagree on the accuracy of the image(s) or don't reply.

All Tootrock wants to know is the origin of the item in the picture.

[tootrock]

I hadn't realised this would get so heated

Regarding the plates with holes that Centurion mentions in post #29, the one at the front might have been added later (but looks well attached), but the one at the tail end is one of the three original fins welded to the body. It has a stud inserted through it, made of some other metal, possibly aluminium.

Martin

[fitzee]

Could be part of a crashed alien spaceship..perhaps keep digging

[aconnolly]

This is very interesting at a number of levels! Whilst not in an engineer, I would not expect any weapon that was released "vertically" to have the piece of metal on the nose as the one under debate has. Such a piece would introduce a definite drag effect and a differential of air movement that would probably cause it to drop in an irregular way, negating/reducing any accuracy or stability that the design was made to achieve. A similar effect would probably occur if the weapon was held horizontally before release, so I agree with Centurion that the bit at the front was probably an addition made for no military reason.

Photo below shows a weapon being loaded. The source is "War over England" by Charlton. No weapon details given.

As to the actual identification of this piece, would IWM be able to help?

Regards

Andrew

[Gary Jucha]

From the drawing, it is clear that there are two "mounting holes" (Rear and main body) .. which at least confirm it is aircraft released. (Whether German or Allied).

Gary J.

[Cnock]

Bombs that comes close to the shape of the found by Martin are :

Traisen 25 kg

Skoda 20 kg

but they have no fins.

Cnock

[ian turner]

Any chance it might be a mortar bomb?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fre...hTorpedoWWI.jpg

I appreciate it is nothing like the example shown on this link, and the fins are a lot smaller too, but I just wondered, if the idea of it being a certain make of aerial bomb is not so certain, then maybe it has the prerequisits of a mortar, especially at the rear end.

Ian

[centurion]

I hadn't realised this would get so heated

Regarding the plates with holes that Centurion mentions in post #29, the one at the front might have been added later (but looks well attached), but the one at the tail end is one of the three original fins welded to the body. It has a stud inserted through it, made of some other metal, possibly aluminium.

Martin

Acording to the drawing in post 43 the fin with the hole is a different shape from the others suggesting its a replacement. The German standard bomb rack for holding bombs in a horizontal position used straps round the bomb rather than something through a hole in the bomb (which would risk a hang up)

[centurion]

Bombs that comes close to the shape of the found by Martin are :

Traisen 25 kg

Skoda 20 kg

but they have no fins.

And I believe supplied to the air arm of the KuK rather than Germany

[TonyE]

I forwarded the pictures to a friend in EOD who has a good knowledge of early bombs and his view was that it is a British practice bomb from the shape of the fins and the attachment method, although not a Cooper or a Hales. He doubted that it had actually been dropped but was more likely to have been "souvenired" at some stage and eventually thrown out by someone.

Hopefully he will come up with a suggestion as to the origin.

Regards

TonyE

[tootrock]

Reference post #40:

The fins are all the same.

Because there are three fins the one on the left is at an angle of 120 degrees to the one on the right.

The different shape is a result of my artistic attempt to represent this!

What is/was KuK?

Martin

[taucher]

This looks like a VMFI (visuale mine fire indicator) who whas used on the britisch exercise mines Mk XVII.

I know some divers recoverd them as a souvenir from the exercise.Maybe this one whas burried as scrap some day.

Cnock is right.This is NOT a carbonite bomb.

[centurion]

What is/was KuK?

Translated 'Emperor and King' - the dual monarchy (Austria and Hungary) ie the Austro Hungarian Empire

[centurion]

This looks like a VMFI (visuale mine fire indicator) who whas used on the britisch exercise mines Mk XVII.

Can you explain further please?

[taucher]

Hey centurion,

This is a VMFI.I'm almost are 100% shure this is your bomb.

Look at the fin with the pin to go in the support of the mine.The fin on the nose is in the other bracket of the mine.

A VMFI whas used (not anymore) as a indicator.When a minesweeper missed the mine during the exercise the VMFI whas activated and a fosforus charge whas released.This charge came to the surface and generated a smoke screen indicating you (the ship)where destroyed.

Whe (the divers) used to go down on the mines and cut the VMFI electrical leads.The VMFI came to the surface and whas recoverd by the divers in the dingy.

Whe then neutralised the VMFI on board the ship.A diver of us once lost a leg neutralising one of those things.They are know forbidden and no longer in use.

Vince

[taucher]

One more picture

The base came in different configurations and there whas always a electrical lead going in to it.

[SiegeGunner]

What is/was KuK?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K.u.k.

[aconnolly]

Vince

Well done - very impressive! I think you have solved it.

Andrew