Timewatch: WW1 Aces Falling (BBC2 Sat 21 March)

[iain mchenry]

Great Documentary. Well done to those that made it and contributed to it. Good to see forumites in action. Great to see fellow pals Sorens drawings being used and how they were used.

Regards

Iain

[Michelle Young]

Very interesting- well done to all those involved.

Michelle

[stripeyman]

A resonably good documetary, I enjoyed it, apart from the mounfull narrator...............

Something niggling; was there a 'War Ministry' as mentioned ?

Bob Grundy

[David B]

hope it turns up here eventually, looking forward with great expectations

david

[ulsterlad2]

Just to add ....... it's on iplayer if that's available to you.

[azureus]

I guessed from the title that Peter H would be involved!

If anyone can record it on DVD so that we can send it to our non-UK members, that would be great. I've only got the old-fashioned Videotape for recording. If I forget, I can see it on the Virginmedia On-Demand, but that is only available in the UK.

Adrian

Ive downloaded it on bbci , I'll see if I can burn it onto cd , if not the download is available for our non uk members http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00jj...I_Aces_Falling/

regards Dave

[Adrian Roberts]

Congratuations to all involved; a good-quality production that I can't seriously fault.

Of course there are always niggles: the parachute issue was dealt with simplistically (but this may have been due to editing) and the aeroplanes in the black and white dog-fight scenes looked like Curtiss Hawks from films such as "Wings" and "Hell's Angels" (but how else were they to do it?).

But it is high time that McCudden and Mannock were brought back to the attention of the British public and this was a very good introduction to them and their comrades.

Re McCudden's rejection as CO:

I don't think it was the done thing - but in this case I understand it was more a collective voicing of no enthusiasm from a group of pilots that - shall we say given the outgoing CO - were not receptive to a disciplinarian taking over.

The fact that the non-public-school Mannock did become CO of 85 supports the suggestion that opposition to McCudden was more about not wanting a disciplinarian than snobbishness about public school. After all the outgoing CO, although middle-class rather than working-class was also not a public-school boy and was a Colonial to boot....at least Mannock did actually make them do some work!

A couple more issues occur to me:

1] What do we think about the possibility of DNA testing of the unknown airman that could be Mannock? This would mean exhumation. I don't know if Mannock has any living family who would give permission for this and furnish a DNA sample for comparison. But do we want to know the truth badly enough to warrant this?

2] While I am very willing to think of McCudden and Mannock as some of my personal heroes, I wonder if being awarded a VC and dying young helps. In the newspaper article from January 1918 that recorded Government permission being given to publicise a few British aces, Philip Fullard's name came above McCudden's. Fullard's name is scarcely known at all now. He never got a VC, and lived to his late 80's, never seeking any publicity. But he must have had at least some of the qualities of these men to have scored so fast; his fighting career ended when broke his leg playing football.

Adrian

[Kevin Tobin]

Thoroughly enjoyed the programme. Thanks for the head up on here!

I too was shocked by the refusal from 85 Squadron to accept a new CO. It is a good illustration of the social divide then.

Yes I do think they should exhume the body and do DNA testing if family were available. The more of the unknown that can be identified the better, not just because of his VC.

[Lost in Tilloy]

Really enjoyed the programme and gaining an insight into the life and service of both James McCudden & Edward Mannock.

With regards to the debate about where Edward Mannock was buried, was the information passed to the British Government via diplomatic channels or was this an example of how the International Red Cross was used to pass information between the two sides? Unfortunately I didn’t tape the programme and I missed what was said about how the info about Edward Mannock’s grave was passed on.

I suppose I was also connecting this programme with the news item about the recent historical documents discovery at the IRC HQ and wondered whether a card or book entry existed there that could help solve the debate. Of course I accept that this avenue might have already been explored and exhausted.

LIT

[Clio]

Yes it was an absorbing documentary. I did not know about the unknown airman at Laventie being a plausible candidate for Mannock. I had previously only heard of the grave at La gorgue.

[Michelle Young]

It seems to me that John Kipling was "identified" by a similar process, so why not erect a stone for Mannock? Has anyone made a formal aplication to have the headstone changed?

Michelle

[Stephen White]

The fact that the non-public-school Mannock did become CO of 85 supports the suggestion that opposition to McCudden was more about not wanting a disciplinarian than snobbishness about public school. After all the outgoing CO, although middle-class rather than working-class was also not a public-school boy and was a Colonial to boot....at least Mannock did actually make them do some work!

The programme did say that the reason for his rejection was because he wasn't public school educated didn't it?.

That being the case, I assume that the thoughts of the squadron regarding discipline were more of a private thing and the "official reason" they gave was that it was because he wasn't a public school boy and that being the official reason its the view stated by the programme.

Am I right in my assumption or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Stephen

[MACRAE]

Yes I acidently turned channel and found this and I was rivited to the program .

Dan

[Alan Tucker]

Excellent stuff. Well done to all our Forum Pals and WFA friends. This was the quality of the early Timewatch's rather than rubbish about the QE2. I assume the editor is a mate of Paul Hart who allowed him to get away with non-BBC 'gobsmackingly stupid'.

[ronaldward]

Excellent portrayal of the dangers of early flying days and the rapid advance of technology and aerial combat from the outset of the war.

Would the newly advertised Red Cross records in Switzerland possibly hold the clue to Mannock's final resting place?

[SiegeGunner]

Regarding non-BBC language, s'not Paul Hart but Peter ...

[charlesmessenger]

I much enjoyed it, especially the contributions by Pete Hart, Paul Reed and others. i thoroughly agree with Adrian Roberts' comment that 85 Sqn did not want McCudden because he was a disciplinarian. By that stage the war RAF pilots were of a wide social mix.

Charles M

[PMHart]

Hi,

I would like to enjoy the fun but sadly Eviltaxman has begun to run amok on the forum and is censoring posts to the extent that it looks like there is no way I can continue to contribute here,

Bye,

Pete

[matthew lucas]

I may be wrong, but i feal this is part of the problem, unusual for the CWGC to change a headstone with the evidence they were given, most people fealing that the new grave is in fact NOT John Kipling - i think the holts make a very good case. Its now the MOD that decide not the CWGC

matt

[IanA]

I would like to enjoy the fun but sadly Eviltaxman has begun to run amok on the forum and is censoring posts to the extent that it looks like there is no way I can continue to contribute here,

There is something far wrong if people of the calibre of Pete and GAC feel they can no longer contribute. A sad day for the forum.

[ralphjd]

A very good documentary in my opinion. Amazing statistics regarding the number of casualties to die not involved in combat. Good point made by Ron Ward re the Red Cross. Ralph.

[SiegeGunner]

Its now the MOD that decide not the CWGC

Wasn't that always the case?

[truthergw]

I may be wrong, but i feal this is part of the problem, unusual for the CWGC to change a headstone with the evidence they were given, most people fealing that the new grave is in fact NOT John Kipling - i think the holts make a very good case. Its now the MOD that decide not the CWGC

matt

I believe it was always up to the MOD to identify the bodies and the CWGC provided the stones accordingly.

[NigelS]

Excellent & enjoyable programme, but the opening minutes resurrected with me a mystery regarding the first RFC fatalities (non-combat) of WW1, details of which I posted on an earlier thread http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...t&p=1062248 but haven't, as yet, had the opportunity to follow up any further. The eye witness account from McCudden's diary given in the programme confirmed that the crew involved - Pilot 2nd Lt. RR Skene & airman RK Barlow - were both killed instantanteously when their plane hit the ground at Netheravon having taken off from there heavily laden for France via Dover. However, the dates of death recorded by the CWGC for the two men are a day apart!

Name: SKENE

Initials: R R

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Second Lieutenant

Regiment/Service: Royal Flying Corps

Date of Death: 12/08/1914

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: West of Church.

Cemetery: SEND (ST. MARY) CHURCHYARD

Name: BARLOW, RAYMOND KEITH

Initials: R K

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Airman 1st Class

Regiment/Service: Royal Flying Corps

Unit Text: 3rd Sqdn.

Date of Death: 11/08/1914

Service No: 331

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: I. 4. 9.

Cemetery: BULFORD CHURCH CEMETERY

Regardless of which date is correct (a variety of sources indicate the 12th), it appears that the unfortunate distinction of being the first airman to be killed in WW1 should not rest with just one man, but, tragically, be shared by two.

NigelS

Edit: Has anyone visited or even have a photo of Barlow's grave at Bulford; does it have a CWGC headstone or, like Skene's, a private one?

[Paul Reed]

Just a couple of points on Mannock and the grave at Laventie:

Andy Saunders, whom you saw in the film, has written an excellent book on Mannock with Norman Franks. Andy is a WW2 aviation archaeologist by background, but I must say his research on Mannock is first class, which is why we were keen to feature him in the programme and the story. Andy has actually put in a lengthy case to MOD in respect of the grave, but it is still on-going. Andy is a member here, so am sure he will explain himself in due course.

CWGC will not agree to graves being exhumed for the purpose of DNA testing. It has never happened and it is unlikely ever to happen.

One part of the programme which we did not have time to include in the end was the story of the original plaque from James McCudden's grave being found by a local farmer at Wavans. While we were researching the programme we heard this story, tracked the farmer down and went to see him. He kindly showed us the plaque and we did eventually film him talking to Mike O'Connor, but there wasn't space to include it for a number of reasons. The farmer was so trusting, he gave us the plaque to take back to the UK to hand over to the RE Museum at Chatham, where it now resides. Nice piece of 'entente cordiale' there.

This is the plaque: