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Aurel Sercu

Hollebeke White Chateau

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Aurel Sercu

I have been in touch for a while with Dave (also a Forum member), regarding where his great uncle was end of Oct. 1914. (1st Royal Dragoons)

This was related to "Hollebeke Chateau".

There is a lot of confusion as there were two (even more) "chateaus" in Hollebeke.

The two most important ones :

- Hollebeke Chateau (or Hollebeke Schloss), just (approx. 200 meters) east of the canal and railroad ;

- White Chateau, also called Bayernschloss, or Chateau Mahieu, an impressive white castle about 1.5 km (1 mile) west of the Canal. It was where now the Palingbeek Golf Course is.

I know about these two castles, and also : the problem that sometimes they are confounded.

The bottom question I have, which would solve everything in Dave's greatuncle's location problem, is simple :

When (what date) was "White Chateau" taken and occupied by the German troops ?

White Chateau, not the other one.

I think it was some time between end of October 1914 and 22 April 1915.

Please, help us out of our misery. :mellow:

Aurel

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frie

Aurel,

I think : 30 october.... The German 22 I.R. --- 3 B.I.D.

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Aurel Sercu

Thanks, Frie (J.),

But I can't say your reply does not make me "happy". B) I would have preferred any day later, even 1 Nov. would have filled me with "delight". :-)

But 30 Oct. again leaves open the possibility that the Chateau that was abandoned by the unit (1st Royal Dragoons) of Forum member Dave's great uncle on 30 Oct. may have been White Chateau, instead of what I had hoped : Hollebeke Chateau (Schloss) east of the railroad / canal.

I have just received information from forum member Peter, and it says :

that on 21 Oct 1914 British troops vacated Hollebeke Chateau [and I am sure this is the chateau east of the railroad / canal) ] and Hollebeke village, ready to fall back to St. Eloi. But British troops recaptured the village of Hollebeke, where the Germans had not taken advantage of the wihdrawal, unaware of the extent of the British retreat. But the Germans remained in control around the Hollebeke Chateau.

And I know for sure that Hollebeke Chateau was finally taken by the Germans and abandoned by the British troops on 30 Oct.

I know this is not in contradiction with what you suppose (that White Chateau too was taken by the Germans on 30 Oct.), but maybe somehow it will help to find an answer to the question : When exactly was White Chateau taken by the Germans.

Aurel

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frie

Leidolff 1967 : geschichte des ehem. 22 I.R. : Um 7 Uhr abends kamm das befehl, dass auch noch Park und dass Schloss Hollebeke genommen werden müssen.

Das Schloss selbst war vom Gegner nicht besetz. dagegen der kanal und die an der Nordspitze des Kanals befindliche Kanalbrücke.

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Aurel Sercu

Frie (J.)

So that was 30 Oct ? It seems to me that "Park und Schloss" refer to Hollebeke Chateau east of the Canal / Railroad.

This appears to be in agreement with a German source (provided by Roel)

http://www.kb5ir.de/Hollebeke_Sturm.htm

where there is no doubt that this is about Hollebeke Chateau / Schloss east of the Canal / Railroad.

So the question remains : on what day between 30 Oct 1914 and 22 April 1915 was White Chateau Hollebeke, 1.5 km west of the canal taken by German troops ?

Aurel

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frie

Aurel,

I'am sure that Park und Schloss in "Leidolff 22 I.R. is not the Hollebeke Chateau east of the canal... Because ... The canal is north of the wood not West (Nordrandes des Parkes dicht am canal.....) The bridge is also north..... Also : Groene Linde close to the Chateau ... troops are between Hollebeke and Wytschaete on 31 october -- 1 november....

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Aurel Sercu

Frie (J.)

I'm afraid I will have to give up, as it appears to be far too confusing for me.

We know that Hollebeke Chateau (Schloss) was abandoned by British troops and taken by German on 30 October 1914.

We know that this Hollebeke Schloss is the one just east of the railroad, based on this :

http://www.kb5ir.de/Hollebeke_Sturm.htm

Your source, Leidolff 22 I.R., indeed when speaking of Hollebeke Schloss, taken 30 October, and writing "Nordrande des Parkes dicht am Kanal" and about the "Kanalbrücke", appears to be referring to White Chateau (Mahieu), which is west of the canal / railroad, and almost 2 km west of the other Hollebeke Schloss, also taken by the Germans on that same day, 30 Oct.

The confusion it seems to me, is caused by the fact that German sources use the same name, "Hollebeke Schloss", for 2 totally different castles, almost 2 km apart. :o

(Later on, on trench maps they will refer to White Chateau as "Bayernschloss".)

So it looks like we unfortunately will never know which one is meant in the story of Dave's greatuncle.

But thanks for your help, even if it makes things more complicated... :huh:

Aurel

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koyli

Hello Aurel,

According to the 4th Hussars History it was the Chateau North of Hollebeke which was taken on the 30th October.

129th Baluchis in their War Diary mention retiring from White Chateau on 30th October.

4th Hussars in the Regt History mention that on 31st October :

"As soon as it was light on the 31st we could see by scrapes in the ground that the enemy's advanced scouts had been right up to the canal on the south bank during the night. Many of them were visible in the village, moving to the railway and woods round the white chateau."

Lawry

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Aurel Sercu

Lawry,

Thanks for your posting.

So White Chateau (northwest of Hollebeke centre) on 30 October 1914 taken by the Germans.

On the other hand we know for sure that Hollebeke Chateau (the one just east of the canal / railroad) too was taken that same day. (Maybe a few hours earlier ?)

Conclusion : we cannot know (right now) which one, Hollebeke Chateau (east of the canal) or White Chateau (west) was meant when it is said that 1st Royal Dragoon abandoned Hollebeke Chateau on 3O October 1914.

Anyway, my initial question in this topic (When was White Chateau taken ?) has been answered.

And I guess WW1 should keep some mysteries, shouldn't it ? ;)

Aurel

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koyli

Aurel,

This might help.

from the 6th Cavalry Brigade history :

Page 12.

"At dawn on the 30th October the 7th cavalry Bde were shelled out of their position, and were forced to withdraw from the Zandvoorde Ridge towards Kleinzillebeke. The Brigade was ordered out to cover their withdrawal and occupy a line of trenches East of Kleinzillebeke. The 10th Hussars were on the left and the two remaining squadrons of the Royals on their right in support of the 3rd Squadron in the chateau of Hollebeke. A strong infantry attack accompanied by heavy shelling developed on the whole front.The squadron in the Chateau was very hard pressed. "C " battery had an excellent target, catching the enemy in the open as they crossed the zandvoorde Ridge. Owing to the loss of the High ground about Hollebeke the Royals were forced to abandon Hollebeke Chateau, and after repulsing several attacks and taking a heavy toll of the enemy, withdrew Northwards......"

This pretty much places the 1st royals(dragoons) north of the canal.

4th Hussars together with 3rd Hussars and Royal Scots Greys were in support and according to 4th Hussars this was halfway between the Chateau East of the canal and another "Petit" Chateau nearer to zillebeke.

Lawry

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Aurel Sercu

Lawry,

Thanks. But to tell the truth this is getting a little too much beyond my comprehension I'm afraid. (Also because not hollebeke but Boezinge is my "habitat". ;-)

It's true that when Hollebeke Schloss was abandoned, the 1st Royal Dragoons went norh, toward Klein Zillebeke, which is north of the canal. As you wrote.

But the question remains : what chateau had they abandoned ? Was if Hollebeke Schloss just east of the canal / railroad, or was it White Chateau, west of the canal, or south if you wish ?

I'm afraid I don't know, and have no idea anymore, since Frie wrote that the latter (White Chateau) too was taken by the Germans on that same day 30 October. And I believe him, for in found confirmation of this in other (German) sources meanwhile. (Thanks, Philip !)

The British line at Hollebeke was :

2nd Cav. Div., with 3rd Cav. Bde and 5th Cav. Bde

and

3rd Cav. Bde, with 6th Cav. Bde (in it 1st Royal Dragoons) and 7th Cav. Bde

But I don't know which one was west (more or less White Chateau area, west of the canal / railroad) and which one east (Hollebeke Chateau / Schloss area, east of the canal / railroad)

Aurel

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frie

Aurel,

The Chateau east was taken before evening

The White chateau : order to take the chateau was only given at 19h.....

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Aurel Sercu

Frie (J.)

Yes, that was my impression too : first Hollebeke Chateau (Schloss), east, and then the village centre and White Chateau.)

Aurel

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Aurel Sercu

And for those who have lost all sense of direction in this White Chateau versus Hollebeke Schloss matter, this map.

Left arrow = White Chateau (Bayernschloss on this German map)

Right arrow = Hollebeke Chateau or Schloss.

(Map is 1917, so the marked lines are not relevant.)

Aurel

post-92-1237488661.jpg

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koyli

Hi Aurel,

I am sure it's the Hollebeke Chateau and not White Chateau. For a start different units cavalry and Infantry fell back on White chateau. There is a map in 4th Hussars Hist. which I will append tomorrow as i'm now at work. This will make it clearer.

Regards

Lawry

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Aurel Sercu

Lawry,

Thanks. And I'm glad we agree. I too think 1st Royal Dragoons was Hollebeke Chateau (Schloss), east of the canal / railroad.

But a map would make things clearer.

Another reason I think it was Hollebeke Chateau, and not White Chateau : There is a photo of 16th Lancers at White Chateau.

16th Lancers was 3rd Cavalry Brigade, in 2nd Cavalry Division.

Whereas 1st Royal Dragoons was 6th Cavalry Brigade, 3rd Cavalry Division. Different Brigade and Division. Which for me is an argument that the latter (1st Royal Dragoons) was not White Chateau, but Hollebeke Chateau.

Aurel

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BillyH

Hello to all those who have contributed to this topic,

I am the Dave that Aurel has been helping, it was my great uncle who was with the 1st Royal Dragoons in Hollebeke Chateau back in 1914.

I'd just like to thank all you senior officers for helping me, a mere lance corporal!

Seriously, I am so grateful and you have now convinced me that it must have been Hollebeke Chateau (Schloss) and not the White Chateau that I was favouring.

Billy H.

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Robindad

I'm looking at another War Diary - 5th Royal Irish Lancers (WO95/1134/2) They were billeted at "Hollebeke Ch" on night of 23 October 1914 after spending several days at BERTHEN ( not sure where that is) where they had been 'improving the trenches ' and were relieved there by 129th Balichis. These two regiments took turn about in those trenches with billeting for the 5th Lancers at Hollebeke Ch on 23-26 October and 28 (5.30 pm) until 29th at 2.30 pm back by 7.pm (for the night) then on the fateful 30th October went to trenches where they got heavily shelled.

On 31st October the WD entry states "Regiment was in support on the left of the French attack on Hollebeke Ch but never came into action. Relieved the 18th Hussars in the trenches at 7pm"

Aurel does your map show Berthen?

Robin

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Donald McLean

Hi Berthen lies to the south of Poperinghe. Roughly lying between Mont des Cats and Mt. Noir. May I ask what your reference is in the 5th Lancers? Don

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Donald McLean

Have now read the rest of the topic. The Château is definitely Hollebeke Château, Built if I remember correctly by a French businessman. Both his sons were killed during the war. The first Indian Victory Cross of the war was won here by a member of the 129th , a machine gunner. A member of the 5th Lancers won the Distinguished Conduct Medal for returning the 129th to the front line, they having retired due to having lost all their Officers. The 5th Lancers believed that the Butler at the Chateau was a spy!

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Robindad

Hi Berthen lies to the south of Poperinghe. Roughly lying between Mont des Cats and Mt. Noir. May I ask what your reference is in the 5th Lancers? Don

Thnaks - I was quoting from their War Diary. I've edited my prvios posty for typos .. hope it now makes more sense.

My Grandfather was a Bandsman with the 5th Lancers (joined 1906) and wounded on 30th October. Trying to trace his steps from Dublin until wounded and then repatriation to UK and Norwich Hospital

Robin

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Cnock

Hollebeke Chateau,

was smaller than Bayern Schloss

regards,

Cnock

post-7723-0-45864100-1395740401_thumb.jp

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Robindad

Have now read the rest of the topic. The Château is definitely Hollebeke Château, Built if I remember correctly by a French businessman. Both his sons were killed during the war. The first Indian Victory Cross of the war was won here by a member of the 129th , a machine gunner. A member of the 5th Lancers won the Distinguished Conduct Medal for returning the 129th to the front line, they having retired due to having lost all their Officers. The 5th Lancers believed that the Butler at the Chateau was a spy!

Thanks Donald ... I'll add those notes to the biography of my grandfather in The Great War. Did the 5th Lancers Story come from Ciaran's book? My copy is due to arrive tomorrow.

Robin

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Robindad

Hollebeke Chateau,

was smaller than Bayern Schloss

regards,

Cnock

Thanks

like the photo with the German caption .. just reading about the fighting there in October 1914 in the book by Pro Ian F W Beckett.

Robin

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BillyH

This is Dave, who is mentioned by Aurel in post #1.

Aurel helped me greatly, and is a wonderful expert on the area just north of this.

Referring to the photo above, posted by Cnock, which appears to have been taken in about Sept/Oct 1914 - I attach an earlier and a later photo of Bayern Schloss showing the subsequent devastation to what had been a beautiful chateau.

BillyH.

post-41657-0-55548100-1395848510_thumb.j

post-41657-0-70395800-1395848580_thumb.j

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