Chiad Fhear Posted 16 March , 2009 Share Posted 16 March , 2009 Hi everyone I recently posted looking for information about War Service Chevrons that my late 2nd cousin James Drummond was awarded in 1944 - according to his civilian Police Record - and have resolved that question satisfactorily. Now I want to find out which of the armed services he joined to serve in the Great War and would appreciate some assistance. I'm a stubborn sort of guy (and also a Scotsman) who has, so far, resisted the expense of using private genealogy firms and would like to continue that if I can. James was born in St Andrews, Fife on 16 Dec 1897 if that's any help and I think he may have been in The Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) - but that's pure speculation given that Fife was and still is their recruiting area. I look forward to some guidance. Regards Chiad Fhear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 16 March , 2009 Share Posted 16 March , 2009 Andy, Did you see my last response to your other Thread? Are there any details of pre-Police employment on his Police Service Record? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiad Fhear Posted 17 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2009 Did you see my last response to your other Thread? Are there any details of pre-Police employment on his Police Service Record? Hi George Yes, I got your reply and apologise for not acknowledging it. The answer was there and I have closed that line of enquiry Regarding your question of pre-Police employment for cousin James ... there is only 'Farm Servant' on his record. No mention of anything military I have attached the 'header' from his record. The content is all about promotions, 'postings', courses, commendations and sickness Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekenai Posted 17 March , 2009 Share Posted 17 March , 2009 How strange Chiad, My great uncle James Drummond, Dvr, 13Bn AIF died at Bullecourt 17Apr 1917, His Brother David Drummond my grandfather survived the war. They were descended from Drummonds who arrived in Australia, one had fought as a Pvt soldier at waterloo--I can get more info from the family if your into that. richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 17 March , 2009 Share Posted 17 March , 2009 Andy, Seems James and my Father followed a similar career path before joining the Police. As an aside, I'll give you one guess to the Town,in Fife,where my Father,was serving,as an Inspector,at the time of my birth. In my Father's case,from the odd story,he related,he seems to have done various jobs in the agricultural field,during the War,plus,of course,his Volunteer Battalion service,prior to deciding to embark on his Police Career in 1919. I am no expert.on WW1 Conscription rules,but is it possible as,a Farm Servant(I hate that phrase),James was exempt from Military Service,during WW1? Others on the Forum may be able to answer this. Best wishes. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eltoro1960 Posted 17 March , 2009 Share Posted 17 March , 2009 Hi there, I was alerted to this thread by George (dycer), I would not think that L&B Police retain any recors pertaining to this era, Jo at the info centre found a load of old paper work a while back and to the best of my knowledge passed it all on to th archivist at the City Chambers. I haven't see the material myself so i don't know whats there. I could make out some of the collar numbers on James's form but not the one as a Constable. I have group photos of the entire personnel of A,B and C divisions taken in 1922 with full medals, hopefully D soon to complete the set, the detail is incredible ,but they are far too big to post here, but are viewable through flikr. A Division B Division C Division John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 17 March , 2009 Share Posted 17 March , 2009 John, Thanks for that, I knew you would turn up trumps. Andy, If you check out the Fife Police Website(Pictorial History),you will find a similar group photograph,taken in 1922(although not on such a large scale,to the ones John has posted).What you may find interesting, is the narrative under the photograph,especially the sentence "Most of the officers involved had been in the Army or had farming backgrounds." I wonder if Edinburgh City had a similar mix,with James moving from agriculture to that Force,to avoid serving in his own "Kingdom" just as my Father moved the other way? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiad Fhear Posted 17 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2009 Steady on there ... I can't handle all this information at one go! Someone did tell me that you guys were a great bunch and would be able to help I'll try and resppond to you all here ... re: Exemption from service ... that may be the case but he wouldn't have been awarded War Service Chevrons UNLESS he'd served and been overseas. re: "I'll give you one guess to the Town in Fife where my Father was serving as an Inspector at the time of my birth" ... could I hazard a guess at St andrews? re: Collar numbers ... I can (variously) see 15, 19, 20, 35, 55, 98 and 258 when I blow it up a bit. re: The photographs ... great - but I've no Idea which one would be cousin James as I never met him! re: James Drummond, Dvr, 13Bn AIF died at Bullecourt 17Apr 1917 ... I'll go on the Australian National Archives site this evening, look at his record and see if there's any hints as to a connection. Please send me anything you may have especially if he/the family were Fifers. Cheers for the moment Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 17 March , 2009 Share Posted 17 March , 2009 Andy, Re Chevrons. If you read the dates of the awards,you posted,on your other Thread the last,and 5th one from memory,was awarded September 1944.I reckon they were awarded by Edinburgh City for each year of WW2 Police War Service,from September 1939,but,of course,am happy to be proved wrong. George p.s. Award yourself a coconut for the correct answer and no,I don't play golf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eltoro1960 Posted 17 March , 2009 Share Posted 17 March , 2009 Andy I think his first collar number is (PC) 98D , which is Leith. I will try and get the D Division photo tomorrow, they are so clear you can read the collar numbers so the fact you never met him isn't really a problem. He is liable to have had that number in 1922, no quick promotions in those days. He seems to have split his service as the memo regarding his LSGC medal is 462/51 ie 1951, which would have gave 32 years service, he would have been eligible for this medal in 1941 at 22 years service. You can see from the numbers of men wearing medals including a few 14/15 Stars MM's and DCM's that war service was common. Serving officers were not allowed to join the Army until late 1915 ,if memory serves me right, following the change of policy they joined in their droves. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 17 March , 2009 Share Posted 17 March , 2009 John. As you know I am not a Medal Collector and therefore rely on experts to give the definitive answer regarding the entitlement and issue of Medals.This following is an extract from a reply I received Forum Member,HarryBettsMCDCM concerning my Father's Police Long Service Medal. "Instituted in 1950 it could only be awarded to serving Police Officers,it could not be awarded retrospectively,however due to the long service of many post WW1 Policemen well into the 1950s(possibly due to the requirements of WW2) it is by no means uncommon to see this Medal in WW1 Groups." George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiad Fhear Posted 17 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2009 My great uncle James Drummond, Dvr, 13Bn AIF died at Bullecourt 17Apr 1917 ... Richard I've just searched on the CWGC website, the AIF Project and the Australian National Archives and I can't find any trace of your great uncle. Any other information? Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiad Fhear Posted 17 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2009 I think the Police Long Service Medal,was first instituted,in the period 1950 to 1952 (before our present Queen ascended the Throne) so many original recipients of the award had more than 22 years qualifying service, before receiving their Medal. George If you look at the section of the record I attached above, you'll note the reference "(Memo 466/51)". My admin background says that this would be 1951, so you are more than likely quite correct. I also think that he may have been awarded his War Service Chevrons retrospectively for WWI and they were not for WWII. Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiad Fhear Posted 17 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2009 Andy I think his first collar number is (PC) 98D , which is Leith. I will try and get the D Division photo tomorrow, they are so clear you can read the collar numbers so the fact you never met him isn't really a problem. He is liable to have had that number in 1922, no quick promotions in those days. He seems to have split his service as the memo regarding his LSGC medal is 462/51 ie 1951, which would have gave 32 years service, he would have been eligible for this medal in 1941 at 22 years service. You can see from the numbers of men wearing medals including a few 14/15 Stars MM's and DCM's that war service was common. Serving officers were not allowed to join the Army until late 1915 ,if memory serves me right, following the change of policy they joined in their droves. John I await your photograph with great enthusiasm. See my earler posts this evening regarding his LS&GCM. There's no indication in his record that he split his service. First page is here ... I'll attach the other in another post Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiad Fhear Posted 17 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2009 ... and here's the next page Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 17 March , 2009 Share Posted 17 March , 2009 Andy, Please,I'm not trying to be cruel. I would have loved,my Father,to have been old enough,to have joined the Police Service,wearing the Overseas Service Chevrons,that his Brother earned,from November 1914 until his death,at the Front,in March 1918. My Father,had to live,with the death, on active service,of his favourite Brother,and at the same time,carve out a career in the Police Force with Men,who displayed Medals,signifying,experiences and sights,that only they could relate to.I'm sure those battle weary Bobbies,took James and my Father, whose Name was Charlie Souness,into their confidence,and whilst never,sharing their war experiences,were wise enough to guide James,and my Father,in the role of civilian Policemen,so that,James,and my Father were,in turn, able to guide young Bobbies,after WW2,who had experienced a different war,in the art of policing. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiad Fhear Posted 17 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2009 George Here's an obituary to a young man who I thought, until just last week, was a relation. I think you and others will appreciate it: Hugh Malcolm Drummond Served with B Company, 1st Royal Natal Carbineers. Attested 3 April 1940 at Zonderwater, Cullinan. Religion was Church of England and NOK was R.M. Drummond, P.O. Box 8, Estcourt. Sailed on the S.S. Devonshire on 17 July 1940 for Kenya . Killed in action 6 July 1942, age 24. Son of Ronald and Eileen Drummond of Estcourt. Buried El Alamein War Cemetery BURIAL IN THE DESERT: ALAMEIN 1942 By Jack Holland This is not a funeral. A funeral is an occasion with a hearse, flowers, shiny motorcars and weeping people. Afterwards you all go to some place where you stand around self-consciously and talk about the one who has recently departed, eat cake and drink tea to help you to overcome your sadness. No, this is a burial. It is no less a sad event, doubly sad because here is a man you have lived with, feared with, fought alongside with and been angry at the enemy with. You know his innermost self. Now he is dead, shot through the body by some young man on the other side, a young man he never knew, a man just like himself, one with whom he would have enjoyed a drink of schnapps or lager, rather than hating him. He lays cold and stiff on a canvas stretcher on the desert floor, to be laid in a shallow grave dug in the desert sand, not far from El Alamein. Unlike a funeral, the body is not encased in a polished wooden coffin with silver plated brass handles. He was a soldier and is therefore wrapped in a grey army blanket secured by a rope around the ankles and wound knot-wise to the head, ending around the throat. It is not the cruel hangman's noose, but something very much like it, because it might just as well have been. His body is outlined through the rough blanket like a statue about to be unveiled, but this is not how we shall remember him. There are no pall bearers. We stand around the shallow grave, the section members who have come down from the front line at Alamein to this quiet back area for the occasion. We are dressed as we are always dressed, in khaki shorts and shirts since it is summertime and the weather is warm, small pack on the back, gas mask on the chest and rifle slung, ready at all times. The Padre stands with us and the stiffened body is lifted off the stretcher, ready to be placed in the shallow grave. As it is lifted a mess of bodily fluid and blood oozes down from the blanket back onto the stretcher. The body is lowered into the grave and the Padre intones the regulation words of solace and utters the promise of Eternal Life in which we, at the last resort, believe. And you, with your own private thoughts cry out silently that young men were meant to live and to love and not to die like dogs in a foreign land away from those who bore them and love them, even unto death. There are no tears for your dead brother, not because soldiers are afraid to weep but only because you have become silent within yourself and any weeping, if it is done, is done deep down and in private. The only mark of respect which you can make at this moment is to remove your steel helmet and stare into the grave at what was yesterday a living creature whom you loved because he was a brave and courteous man, and above all, that like you and the man on the other side who killed him, he was a human being. The desert sand is shoveled onto the body and when the grave has been filled you all stand around it; There is nothing to say and each holds his grief and feelings where they should be held, within himself. There are no flowers. The grave is marked with a plain white wooden cross, an item which is always available; his name and his rank are inscribed on it with black paint, an item which too, is always available. Do these crosses and the paint with which they are marked, come up with the rations, and is it true that a shilling is taken off your pay for the privilege of a blanket in which to wrap your mortal remains? We do not know and do not have to know. The line awaits us and it is time to get back to where so many young men on both sides will meet with a piece of jagged steel or explosive and die as did Dog Drummond. Yes, we called him Dog but he did not die like one! ...................................... When you go home, tell them of us and say: "For your tomorrows these gave their today" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 17 March , 2009 Share Posted 17 March , 2009 Andy, My Father's favourite Brother,George,has no known grave and is commemorated by Name,on the Arras Memorial. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARMAGH Posted 17 March , 2009 Share Posted 17 March , 2009 Andy Very moving,keep searching, you hopefully will find your NOK details. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekenai Posted 18 March , 2009 Share Posted 18 March , 2009 Richard I've just searched on the CWGC website, the AIF Project and the Australian National Archives and I can't find any trace of your great uncle. Any other information? Regards Andy Sorry Andy, l'm a goose as l left out 1 vital fact, ie, his surname ! My great uncle was James Drummond Swasbrick. They had Drummond as a middle name due to the fact that their grandfather was a Drummond so they carried the name. Thats the trouble with posting late night after a hard day. good luck Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiad Fhear Posted 18 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 March , 2009 Very moving,keep searching, you hopefully will find your NOK details. Joe Nice to 'see you' subscribed on this Forum as well Joe! Thanks for your encouragement. I'm thinking this James Drummond may have served in The Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) in WWI before he joined the police. The search goes on! Regards Andy (aka Chiad Fhear) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiad Fhear Posted 18 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 March , 2009 Sorry Andy, l'm a goose as l left out 1 vital fact, ie, his surname! My great uncle was James Drummond Swasbrick. They had Drummond as a middle name due to the fact that their grandfather was a Drummond so they carried the name. Thats the trouble with posting late night after a hard day. You had me doing a bit of brain racking there for a while Richard I was beginning to think I was losing the plot! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekenai Posted 18 March , 2009 Share Posted 18 March , 2009 You had me doing a bit of brain racking there for a while Richard I was beginning to think I was losing the plot! Andy But there is a Drummond buried here in Australia, in Victoria. He was a soldier from Waterloo--and l think Mum has photos of his grave cheers Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eltoro1960 Posted 18 March , 2009 Share Posted 18 March , 2009 Andy After a bit of checking i find that the collar numbers operated differently from when I joined in 1985, the numbers are sequetial with A Division having 1 to 233 B 233 to 300 and odds etc. This means that 93 was in A Division,I cant see 93A I found 95 and 92. 258 was in B Division , or Gayfield Square. I found what I believe to be 258B but annoyingly his is one of the few collars numbers that are difficult to read, he is also wearing a medal that no one else appears to have, he isn't sporting WW1 service medals. As George has correctly spotted the LSGC medal was not introduced untl 1951, hence the memo which probably allows for retrospective issue of the award. I spoke to an old retired gaffer of mine who said the WW2 men were allowed to wear their service stripes but no one bothered, they did however wear their ribbons. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiad Fhear Posted 18 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 18 March , 2009 After a bit of checking i find that the collar numbers operated differently from when I joined in 1985, the numbers are sequetial with A Division having 1 to 233 B 233 to 300 and odds etc. This means that 93 was in A Division,I cant see 93A I found 95 and 92. 258 was in B Division , or Gayfield Square. I found what I believe to be 258B but annoyingly his is one of the few collars numbers that are difficult to read, he is also wearing a medal that no one else appears to have, he isn't sporting WW1 service medals. As George has correctly spotted the LSGC medal was not introduced untl 1951, hence the memo which probably allows for retrospective issue of the award. I spoke to an old retired gaffer of mine who said the WW2 men were allowed to wear their service stripes but no one bothered, they did however wear their ribbons. You're a real hawkeye John ... that's an amazing find and there is something of a Drummond resemblance! If I manage to find any surviving family - following my detective work in New Register House, Edinburgh in a couple of weeks - I'll be able to meet them armed with that picture. I'm afraid I can't help with the medal either. Why didn't they do colour pictures in these days ? Thanks again Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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