Hospital Ship Panama and HMHS Maine

[Kath]

Can anyone give me the Official Number for SS Panama?

Thanks,

Kath.

[Joe R]

Hi Kath,

ON number for PANAMA is 115276. Source: http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/ON110000.htm

Happy to help

Respectfully,

Joe R

[Kath]

Thank you, Joe.

Now I can see what crew lists the Memorial University of Newfoundland has.

Kath.

[cgpigott]

I now see that some of the dates in my post of 12 Jul 2014 are a bit awry, particularly around the end of November & early December.

And from other sources, including surviving diaries, we find details of at least one other earlier voyage from Malta to Southampton:

Diary of Private Adam DAVIDSON, 1/4th Royal Scots:

8 Oct 1915 - 1 p.m. Drove to Valetta and boarded the H.S. Panama, and about 5 o'clock we head for home.

12 Oct 1915 - 4 a.m. Passing Gibraltar.

16 Oct 1915 - 8 a.m. Arrived at Southampton.

These dates are corroborated in another diary, of James Donald SUTHERLAND, 1st Field Artillery Brigade, A.I.F. (later transferred to the Flying Corps):

26 Sep 1915 - Embarked on the H.M.H.S. Dundee Castle for Malta.

8 Oct 1915 - Embarked on the Panama & returned to the U.K.

16 Sep 1915 - Admitted 1st Southern General Hospital, Birmingham.

Sister KIRKCALDIE ("In Grey and Scarlet") wrote that after 2 days clear sailing from Malta, they ran into the "great storm" which engulfed the Peninsula.

TI now see that that storm broke on the evening of 26 November, resulting in flash flooding in the trenches; and was followed by blizzard conditions for the next day or two, and below freezing conditions until 30 November, when temperatures warmed up a bit.

So it appears that the Panama is unlikely to have arrived in Mudros much before 29 or 30 Nov, and probably was at Suvla Bay embarking the 1172 frost-bite victims on 1 or 2 December, prior to returning to Mudros for the exchange of 200 of the less wounded, all in time for her 3 Dec sailing for Malta (as recorded by the Embarkation Officer).

And it therefore appears likely that it was on her return to Mudros on 10 Dec that she collected the second group of frost-bite victims from "...that well known Transport Ship" on which the men had been left for 7-8 days without any medical attention.

We also find that in Malta, in the last week of December, after her return from Albania (24 Dec) via Brindisi (25 Dec), and when the case of para-typhoid A had been discovered, she was, with her crew, quarantined in a back-water in Malta for 14 days.

It was reported, by Capt W. BROUGHTON-ALCOCKE, R.A.M.C, Officer-in-Charge of the Infectious Diseases Hospital at Intarfa [Journal of the RMAC, Vol.34, No 4, Mar 1920], that 136 of the Panama's complement were successfully inoculated with serum held by the hospital, with complete success.

I speculate that she left Malta on or about 11 or 12 Jan for Mudros.

Does anybody know what significance lies in the notion that the Panama became one of His Majesty's Hospital Ship in 1915, but was not actually "acquired" by the Admiralty until 1918 or 1919?

Would she therefore in the interim have been "commandeered" by the government, and so still belonged to her original owners, who probably therefore continued to crew her, rather than her being crewed by Royal Navy personnel?

And might this account for her ship's log not being among those held by The National Archives?

Might the log therefore be among those held by the Department of Shipping & Seaman, which at my last recollection (1983) was located in Cardiff?

Further, as a small matter of financial housekeeping, would the R.A.M.C. have paid their medical staff direct? Or would they have had to collect their wages at R.A.M.C. depots at Malta or elsewhere, or at Regimental H.Q. on their return?

Regards,

Chris PIGOTT.

[pagius]

http://historicalrfa.org/ships-starting-with-m/1897-rfa-maine-3

 

Back in the Med briefly  Jan 1917.     (Salonika - Malta - then back to England)

[Guest]

I have a wooden box, bought by my mother in the late 1970s, which is inscribed on its base: 

This Box is made out of one of the electric light cases from HMHS "Panama" (then a name, which is hard to read: G--- ard) 1924.

If anyone knows what the name might be, or whether many such souvenirs were made, please could you reply.

[rodonisle]

My grandfather's records show he "Embark for England from Malta"  31.10.15 aboard "H.S. Panama."  He had been in Gallipoli.

[Ivor Anderson]

My great grandfather came back to England from France (with a GSW in his left thigh) in October 1917:

[KizmeRD]

HMHS Panama made a total of eight trips between Southampton and Le Harve during October 1917, usually carrying back around 450 patients each voyage.

MB

[KizmeRD]

On 02/02/2021 at 00:56, rodonisle said:

My grandfather's records show he "Embark for England from Malta"  31.10.15 aboard "H.S. Panama."  He had been in Gallipoli.

HMHS Panama sailed from the Dardenelles to Malta with wounded from Gallipoli on 16 October 1915, then (as you say) sailed from Malta to UK on 31 October.

MB

 

Edited 9 July , 2021 by KizmeRD

[KIWIWAYNE]

I am researching into 54744 Gnr. Harold Williamson, Royal Garrison Artillery.  B. 2/03/1896 - 1915 - 19 years.  He was wounded in France and had a hernia problem which resulted in his evacuation from Rouen to England for treatment on the H.S. Panama 22.8.16 and spent 52 days in 2 Western General Hospital, Manchester recovering.    

[KIWIWAYNE]

I am researching into 54744 Gnr. Harold Williamson, Royal Garrison Artillery.  B. 2/03/1896 - 1915 - 19 years.  He was wounded in France and had a hernia problem which resulted in his evacuation from Rouen to England for treatment on the H.S. Panama 22.8.16 and spent 52 days in 2 Western General Hospital, Manchester recovering.    

[KIWIWAYNE]

Hospital ships' movements 1915-19 - Hospital ships | NZHistory, New Zealand history online

 

A useful site for information about New Zealand Hospital Ship names and movement.

[Graham Anstey]

Just a quick update to this thread. My grandfather was evacuated from France (I need to dig through the records and my books to find out exactly where they were at that point) on HMHS Panama. Entry from TNA attached.

[ScottB]

To revive this thread I think I can clear some misunderstanding about the ships Panama and Maine. I’m not to sure if it’s been said elsewhere so my apologies if it has. We have 2 separate ships here and this has caused the confusion. 

Firstly we have a ship built in Hartlepool in 1887 called the Swansea which was renamed SS Maine  in 1888. In October 1899 the Boer War broke out in South Africa and the use of a vessel as a hospital ship was offered. Funding of the conversion was raised by the "American Ladies Hospital Ship Society" based in London and headed by Winston Churchills mother. The SS Maine sailed for South Africa on 23 December 1899 and arrived at Durban on 23 January 1900. At this point she was a hospital ship but still SS Maine. After four months, she returned to UK and then went to China station for the Boxer Rebellion. The following year she was again back in the UK, and in March 1901 she served in the Mediterranean after being gifted to the British Government by the owners and the hospital equipment on board was also gifted by the American Ladies. In 1905 on the formation of the RFA she became RFA Maine. While under this name but still a hospital ship she ran aground on the Isle of Mull in June 1914. She couldn’t be salvaged so was eventually scrapped.

Secondly we have the SS Panama which was built in 1902 on Clydeside ( not to be confused with an American SS Panama which worked the Panama Canal )and was an ocean liner who travelled to South America. On the 25th July 1915 she was commissioned as a Hospital ship and became HMHS Panama and served in the Mediterranean as that until the end of the war . In 1920 she was bought by the admiralty and renamed RFA Maine and served in the China station. 
 

So my take on it (and I could be wrong) it that you had 2 ships that were called RFA Maine at some point , who were both hospital ships at some point, both served in the Mediterranean at some point and also served in the China station at some point. 

 

Edited 4 January , 2023 by ScottB

[horatio2]

22 hours ago, ScottB said:

On the 25th July 1915 she was commissioned as a Hospital ship and became HMHS Panama

Chartered by the Admiralty as an Ambulance Transporton this date but not "commissioned". PANAMA was purchased by the Admiralty and re-named RFA MAINE (the third ship to bear that name) in October 1920.

The second MAINE (formerly HELIOPOLIS (1905) and HS MEDIATOR) was re-named MAINE in July 1914 in place of the stranded MAINE (1) (formerly SWANSEA). In March 1916, deemed unsuitable for HS conversion, MAINE (2) was re-sold to the former owner and re-named HELIOPOLIS.

It would appear, therefore, that there was no HS MAINE operating as such during WW1 because: MAINE (1) (ex-SWANSEA) was stranded pre-war; MAINE (2) (ex-HELIOPOLIS) was never converted to or operated in the HS role; and MAINE (3) operated as PANAMA until 1920.

Edited 5 January , 2023 by horatio2

[ScottB]

 

2 hours ago, horatio2 said:

Chartered by the Admiralty as an Ambulance Transporton this date but not "commissioned". PANAMA was purchased by the Admiralty and re-named RFA MAINE (the third ship to bear that name) in October 1820.

The second MAINE (formerly HELIOPOLIS (1905) and HS MEDIATOR) was re-named MAINE in July 1914 in place of the stranded MAINE (1) (formerly SWANSEA). In March 1916, deemed unsuitable for HS conversion, MAINE (2) was re-sold to the former owner and re-named HELIOPOLIS.

It would appear, therefore, that there was no HS MAINE operating as such during WW1 because: MAINE (1) (ex-SWANSEA) was stranded pre-war; MAINE (2) (ex-HELIOPOLIS) was never converted to or operated in the HS role; and MAINE (3) operated as HS PANAMA until 1920.

I did not know that the SS Panama was originally chartered as an Ambulance Transport and just assumed she was HMHS Panama from the 25th July 1915. When did she become HMHS Panama ?

War diary WO-95-4147/5 has her as HMHS Panama from 27th Jan 1917 till July 1917 and then HMAT from 1st September 1917 till 31st Dec 1918 and then WO-95-4147/6 has her as HMAT until October 1920. 

 

[KizmeRD]

This is also a useful and informative link which might help to clarify your understanding…

https://birtwistlewiki.com.au/wiki/HMHS_Panama

MB

[horatio2]

Onm further consideration I think her initial designation was as a Hired Military Hospital Ship (HMHS). The re-classification to Hired Military Ambulance Transport (HMAT) appears to date from 20 May 1917:  "Received an order stating that the future designation of hospital ships had been changed to 'Ambulance Transports', to be armed, the Red Cross flag was to be dispensed with and the restrictions as to the conveyance of Military personnel and materials automatically withdrawn."   [ http://www.historicalrfa.org/ships-starting-with-m/1897-rfa-maine-3  ]

[KizmeRD]

Due to alleged misuse of Allied hospital ships for military purposes, the German government issued a memorandum dated 29 January 1917 giving notice that in future, any hospital ship operating in the area of the southern North Sea and English Channel would be regarded as a belligerent and be liable to attack. Later a second memorandum was issued dated 31 March 1917 extending the area where hospital ships could be targeted to include the Mediterranean.

As a result of the above, hospital ships were soon being torpedoed on a fairly regular basis, ASTURIAS 20 March 1917, GLOUCESTER CASTLE 30 March 1917, INDIA (Greek) 12 April 1917, LANFRANC 17 April 1917, DONEGAL 26 April 1917, DOVER CASTLE 26 May 1917 and so on.

Unsurprisingly therefore, during late Spring/early Summer 1917, many British Hospital Ships were re-designated ‘Ambulance Transports’ - no longer entitled to international protection under the Hague X Convention (which they weren’t receiving anyway).
Sailing with the status of an ordinary merchant ship meant that they then became free to adopt regular defences measures against U-boat attack i.e. it was no longer necessary for them to sail illuminated at night, and they were free to fit defensive armament if required.
There was also an additional advantage for the Admiralty in that there was now nothing to stop Ambulance Transports dropping off casualties in UK ports and returning to France with much needed war supplies (rather than complying with Hague X rules and returning empty).

MB

 

 

Edited 5 January , 2023 by KizmeRD

[Marilyne]

On 08/04/2014 at 07:39, kjharris said:

Hi ya'll

Rose Kirkcaldie's book, "In Grey and Scarlet...", gives excellent description of Panama - but she didn't join this ship until October 1915

 

cheers Kirsty

Good afternoon all, 

Does anybody know if this book has been re-published in recent years or how it could be read? 

Thanks.

MM.

[kjharris]

Hi Marilyne

https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/19019683?keyword=in gray and scarlet

This link shows where in Australia the book is held. It is not available online. Of more interest to you is that you might be able to get most of it electronically from the National Library of Australia- follow the link above and click on the Buy tab instead of borrow - and see the info titled 'Need A Copy'.

Is there a particular part you are looking for?

regards

Kirsty