Paul Reed Posted 12 February , 2003 Share Posted 12 February , 2003 A friend sent me the following image: It appears someone is selling reproduction Princess Mary Gift Tins; the tell-tale sign being the 1914 in the centre circle, rather than her image. While this is obviously not wrong or a crime, and the manufacturer clearly state they are a copy, collectors should be aware that these are out there. Further details are on the company website which sells them: http://www.therussianshop.com/russhop/repl...icas/candyb.htm Maybe some of you might even want to buy one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 12 February , 2003 Share Posted 12 February , 2003 I've seen these tins before. Originally,they were a commercial copy made in the 1920's (the crown forbade the use of a royal image) and sold as pure souvenirs. It appears that someone is re-manufacturing them (a reproduction of an "unofficial" type). Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 It all raises the interesting question of what else is forged? One finds all sorts of stuff on sale in museums and the like on the Somme and Ypres. Some of it is clearly repro such as the regimental badges on sale at the Abri Museum in Albert and the prices reflect that. But the same badges are on sale at other outlets at far higher prices suggesting that they are originals. I cannot tell the difference between them. As enquiries are usually met with an evasive reply I draw my own conclusions, make my excuses and leave. But with other material, how would one know? The Brittania death plaques now fetch a fair price, especially if they are accompanied by a testimonial. 25 years ago one could pick them up at house clearance sales for next to nothing; now one has to pay good money. It's only a question of time before artefacts like this attract the attention of forgers - if they have not done already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 Unfortunately,there are already repro death plaques out there. Luckily , most are "blank" and the name can only be stamped or engraved on. There are also some smaller versions thet were once sold as "Guards plaques".This is untrue, as they are just another repro.(Although I believe the Canadian Government issue smaller versions as re-issues). I've also seen a cast copy,but it was poor compared to the originals,and much lighter (in both colour and weight). You can guarentee that they'll get better,though! Reproductions are big business these days,so,if original items are being sought after,then a little prior research is necessary. Let the buyer beware. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 A box of the type Paul Reed has shown was sold recently on eBay. HOWEVER reproductions of the tins featuring the head of Princess Mary ARE being sold in the UK. I saw one at a recent antiques fair in Bromsgrove. The copy however does not have a hinged lid, it has a snap on one. In addition the decoration to the lid has used a single pressing ie the images have uniform depth, rather than the original which has a contoured impression (sorry for the jargon). It is rumoured that these tins are being manufactured in Eastern Europe. Other copies hitting the market at the moment include the campaign medals, particularly the 1914 star. In time these will be aged by unscrupulous individuals............ As always it is caveat emptor, but with families realising the significance and value of genuine items such as medals and memorabilia less fresh material is coming onto the market - just the conditions for a 'bootleg' industry to capitalise on! Ian PS Have a mother-in-law in the trade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 Sorry should have specified that the mother-in-law is an antiques dealer! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Lines Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 I can confirm what Ian has said about 1914 Star copies. There are loads of them on the market and a couple I have seen were excellent. I don't know if they are good enough yet to fool an expert though? I've also heard that Memorial Scrolls can now be forged quite easily and I have even seen a very poor copy that wasn't even written in the proper style being sold as genuine in the last week. With regard to badges I've been told that as many as 80% of them on ebay are copies!!!!!! BEWARE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 I have also been watching the glut of Tyneside Irish and Scottish badges. It seems that both units had far more members than the original roster. These badges are easily reproduced as in the case of U.S. Civil War metal items yet every one listed is an 'original'. The original and the copy cannot be distinguished from one another. The dagger business is also booming with the original manufacturer still making current copies of items they produced in WWII. If you do have something original make sure you keep the provenance fully updated and supply all means to substantiate it. A good source for this are old photos and postcards. If you have a relative with the item in question and can clearly show the chain of ownership then you will have an easier time if you want to sell the item or if you want to insure the item. I am one of those who never parts with an item belonging to the family, it is too much a piece of history to my family and future generations. Considering how much we lost in a fire in the 1930's (19th Century photos and military papers, etc.) I want to ensure that everything else is accounted for. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 There are also a large number of un-named WWI DCMs & MMs on the market, in my view too many to all be originals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 Ralph - Problem is a lot of the Tyneside Scottish badges are being struck from original dies and there is one such 'gentleman' in the UK making a healthy sideline from it! In addition the said 'gentleman' bought up every single WW1 dated shell case he could lay his hands on 10 or so years ago and everyone thought he was potty. A number of years later he started to sell 'trenchart' at fairs...........you might think it, but I couldn't possibly comment! As for helmet liners....well that's another story. Anyway caveat emptor everytime! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 I work in the fraud business, we investigate, arrest and imprison those who would steal from us. In all of the years I have been collecting nothing would surprise me regarding the lengths some people will go to make a dollar (Pound, etc.) All I can say to the people just becoming involved is do all of the research you can, watch the old 'Lovejoy' series from England and become as educated in your field as possible. Since our cases at work have involved every known profession and people to age 77 do not judge anyone, dealer or private, as being above a quick deal. I am still trusting but I always verify. Even the best of us get taken at times. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 Unfortunately most of my lessons have been learn't the hard way! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 There's been a lot of talk about repro (or restrike) badges,which of which there are probably more now than originals.Some of these are excellent in quality and may even be as old as the originals (re-striking has been around since Victorian days). So long as the buyer is aware that they're not buying an original,I see nothing wrong with re striking.It's sometimes the only way of getting hold of an "example" of a particularly rare piece. As for medals,I've yet to see one that could easily pass as an original (various Interallied Victory medals apart - some copies were made at the same time as originals off reject dies etc.). Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter johnson Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 I was offered one of these tins yesterday in a flea market. at first i could not believe the price of £12. 50, though he would sell it for £10. it was only on closer inspection that i realised it was fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 I was offered one of these tins yesterday in a flea market. at first i could not believe the price of £12. 50, though he would sell it for £10. it was only on closer inspection that i realised it was fake. This is where it could get confusing: If it is an "original copy" (ie.1920's souvinir tin),then it could be worth as much,if not more,than one of the Princess Mary head tins as they are rarer. If it's a "modern copy" of an "original copy",then I think £10 is quite reasonable as it's obviously been priced as a "copy". Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Lines Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 I would be interested if anyone knows how to tell the difference. I bought one for a tenner which I assumed was a copy. It has a Royal Sheffield crest on the bottom which again I assumed was not genuine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 Pul Hinckley has an an excellent article about the Princess Mary Tin, giving details of the different official types - there were 6 or 7! - and he also mentions the "Royal Sheffield" version right at the end. Here's a link to the article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter johnson Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 The seller, when i questioned him, tried to tell me that this was one of the original tins given to the soldiers. However i have seen first hand an original, whereas this one was at least 3 - 4 times heavier being very thick brass and the lid was not hinged. As to when this one was made i have no idea, as tonight was the first time that i have heard about these copies. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 All human life seems to be on ebay ! I have noticed a guy in the States who seems to have access to an unlimited number of "Genuine Civil War Binoculars". Most peculiar ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 All human life seems to be on ebay ! I have noticed a guy in the States who seems to have access to an unlimited number of "Genuine Civil War Binoculars". Most peculiar ! I still find it hard to believe that the person selling a "bottled human soul" on ebay actually got a few bidders! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 13 February , 2003 Share Posted 13 February , 2003 I have never had any problem with people selling re-struck cap badges or repro Princess Mary tins, the real problem is that somewhere along the chain these items start to get passed off as originals and that is what really sucks! Has anyone noticed the large number of Guards Machine Gun Regt cap badges that are suddenly seeing the light of day? Or unopened packets of cigarettes and tobacco for the Mary tins. A friend of mine bought one such Mary tin with an unopened packet of cigarettes. This packet didn't quite fit the tin and in addition the silver foil was smooth. We opened it and found it contained cigarettes which were more 1990's than 1914! the seller concerned pleaded ignorance and said he sold it on in good faith as unopened. This is just one example of repros suddenly becoming the real McCoy. It all boils down to knowing your subject, dealing with reputable dealers/sellers and always being prepared to lose as much as you pay for something because the experts sometimes have the wool pulled over their eyes too! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 14 February , 2003 Share Posted 14 February , 2003 I think one of the best items I have come across on Ebay recently was a genuine MGC Old Comrades Association Sweetheart Brooch. Yes it was genuine - the MGCOCA produced a batch last year and it was on of those. Indeed they were a small numbered limited edition run and probably are scarcer than the originals. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Lines Posted 14 February , 2003 Share Posted 14 February , 2003 Ian Good point about the Mary tin cigarettes. I saw a small bag full of these packets traded between dealers at a military fair very cheaply last year. Think I've got a good idea why they were so cheap now! One of the strangest things I've seen on ebay was a bit of wood from Brighton Pier that had washed up on the beach! They didn't get anything for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 14 February , 2003 Author Share Posted 14 February , 2003 All human life seems to be on ebay ! I have noticed a guy in the States who seems to have access to an unlimited number of "Genuine Civil War Binoculars". Most peculiar ! What about the guy on American Ebay who sells strands of the Red Baron's hair !! Guarenteed "genuine", I'm told... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 14 February , 2003 Share Posted 14 February , 2003 Paul - its the modern day equivalent of the Middle Ages practice of selling Saint's bones! If anyone is interested I have a toenail clipping from Lawrence of Arabia.......... Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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