Mystery drill hall - help sought, please

[Dragon]

I found Trecwn on the old maps. I should have said that drill halls may not show on the 1:10560 maps but may be marked on the larger scale ones. Unfortunately those aren't enlargeable. Trecwn doesn't have its own entry in Kelly's Directories up to 1895, so I'll go back to the npe maps, find its parish and look again. Thos npe maps are great. I wasn't aware of their existence.

Trecwn isn't listed on Graeme's database. That doesn't mean that it didn't have a DH, but that it didn't show as having one in his trawl of the directories. You can sometimes find grand DHs in unlikely places, if someone has sponsored it and wants to be remembered for a grand gesture!

What I did find, though, was a village called Spittal, Pembs, NE of Haverfordwest and close to, but not on, the GWR. Noted it down. It's obviously not the village with the rail lines and the terrain is too flat.

[Dragon]

I looked at Trecwn under its parish of Llanfair Nant-y-Gof. Llanfair N. is 2 miles from the Letterston terminal station on the branch from Clynderwyn on the North Pembrokeshire railway. No mention of a DH - but the online directories stop at 1895.

However, not very far north of Trecwn is Llanychaer. (This is 3 miles from Puncheston on the Clynderwen and Letterston Railway.) No DH mentioned there. The reason I mention Llanychaer is that there is a reference to Spite, in the parish of Llanychaer, in the 1891 census. I don't yet know what that Spite is. It may be the Cant Spite in the photo Nigel found.

Excuse my ignorance, please, but are these various railways part of the GWR - meaning, I suppose, would a GWR train be running on them? I am absolutely at a loss where the GWR ceases to be the GWR and if or when other connecting railways become part of it.

[Rockdoc]

We're not only talking pre-nationalisation, we're talking about pre-grouping, when the original companies were merged into The Big Four (LMS, LNER, Southern and GWR) so the route network we enthusiasts tend to think of is reduced a bit. The GWR main lines were London to Bristol & on to Penzance and London to Birmingham (Snow Hill) and then on to Shrewsbury and Birkenhead. North Wales was the preserve of the LNWR but the GWR had the Welsh borders and south. The Central Wales line to Machynlleth, Pwlleli and Aberystwyth was operated by the Cambrian. The South Wales valley railways were often operated by independent companies. In the South West of England, the GWR was in strong competition with the LSWR for ocean-liner traffic.

I know I'm not helping to pin this down but I don't know the GWR in any detail and can't find any maps on-line.

Keith

[grantowi]

Here's a map of GWR's coverage cira 1945

[grantowi]

..And some of the smaller raiway companys that the GWR "absorbed":

01 January 1923 Port Talbot Railway and Docks 58½ miles

07 August 1896 Cefn and Pyle Railway 6½ miles

01 January 1923 South Wales Mineral Railway 11¼ miles

01 January 1923 Taff Vale Railway 124½ miles

31 July 1902 Aberdare Railway 7½ miles

26 August 1889 Cowbridge Railway 10 miles

17 August 1894 Cowbridge and Aberthaw Railway 6½ miles

26 August 1889 Dare Valley Railway 3½ miles

26 August 1889 Llantrisant and Taff Vale Junction Railway 7 miles

26 August 1889 Rhondda Valley and Hirwain Junction Railway 3¼ miles

01 January 1923 Vale of Glamorgan Railway 21 miles

01 January 1923 Welshpool and Llanfair Light Railway 9 miles

Grant

[Dragon]

Thank you, Keith, for the potted history and thank you, Grant, for the maps and list.

I feel quite overwhelmed at the range of possible areas.

[grantowi]

This looks like quite a substancial building, so I'd guess it would be near a town rather than a village

Have you got all of you known drill halls marked on a map ?

might be an idea to look in the areas where there are big gaps in your map to narrow the search area down

Grant

[Myrtle]

However, if we're right and that is a canal in the mid-level, there are very few locations it could be because here weren't many canals in Wales. Those I know are the Newtown and Llangollen canals and a look on the 'Net yesterday brought up one near Usk. My vote would be somewhere near Llangollen or Bala.

Keith

There was a canal in the Swansea Valley.

Gwyn I don't believe that this relates to the Spite Inn as the photo doesn't look like the Epynt/Llanwrtyd area.

Myrtle

[Graeme Fisher]

The way I look at the photo is that we're looking down on the scene from a hill or vantage point, perhaps a church tower?

Notwithstanding all the stuff in the distance, the drill hall and farm building in the foreground are at the end of a lane. That suggests a lane running out from a settlement below, or immediately left or right of the photographer. But then why doesn't the lane carry on to the railway or the dwellings?

The suggestions, and the trainspotting, are awesome! We're blessed with some incredible knowledge on t'Forum.

Oh, and for building specialists - there are lots of chimneys on the drill hall and its dwelling - all on the outside walls. strikes me as odd, given that most dwellings have chimneys centrally, as they often served two rooms.

[Dragon]

Hm. I hadn't thought of that. The externally placed chimneys suggest to me that there may be a large room on the upper floor and they didn't want chimneys from downstairs intruding into the space. So what I thought was the residential part may be part residential and part functional. Actual halls I've visited often have chimneys and stacks on external walls (thinking of Bungay off the top of my head) if they haven't got central heating.

Given that the size of the door is probably about six feet, I'll try to put some dimensions on the building and house.

Grant - no map, but a database. A map would be a good idea, given time. We thought of a clickable one for the website in due course. I'm going to go through the database tomorrow.

Myrtle - thanks for the local knowledge. It's some years since I visited that area.

Gwyn

[NigelS]

"Googling" Trecwn doesn't help with our puzzle but reveals that there's more to the place than expected, unfortunately, it's WW2 related! see http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites/t...cwn/index.shtml which more than explains the industrial nature of the site.

The npe map, said to be circa 1940, does show a railway track but whether this was put down in 1938 or, might have existed before that, is open to speculation. Unfortunately the "Old Maps" website doesn't have any maps between 1908 & 1953 and the site would have changed radically between those two dates. Would a map c. 1940 have had a rail track that lead to a secret facility shown? - I wouldn't have thought so, but, if it had existed for many years pre WW2 it might well have been, as, as it would already have been shown on earlier maps and then not showing one which would have been clealy visible from the air might have caused suspicion that there was something there to hide. I'm wondering if the weapons store may have been built around existing tunnels from an earlier quarrying operation which were already served by a railway branch from the GWR Fishguard line.

Unfortunately, no matter how I compare the modern aerial/Sat's with the older maps , I am unable to convince myself one way or the other whether it might have been the DH location or not: there's certainly no sign of one there now, as the weapons store has changed the landscape radically.

Some of the terrain around the railway lines in the Haverfordwest area does look right to fit the DH in the photo, but nowhere else really seems to fit the bill (Treffgarne which is close to Spittal, for example, has the A40, when there is no trace of a road in the photo -, unless it's where we thought there was a river - there is a large estate nearby, perhaps the wealthy owner wanted his own DH!); most of the communities seem far too small to warrant one, or have some other very obvious problem which mean they don't fit the bill, and certainly no sign of a DH - all very frustrating!

NigelS

[Dragon]

there is a large estate nearby, perhaps the wealthy owner wanted his own DH!);

- and indeed, some did! Bestwood Some wanted their own little branch / band of Volunteers. I don't suppose the staff had much choice. Even Kipling set up his own rifle club in its own drill shed in the early 1900s. (Sorry - working from memory here.)

Subbrit is a wonderful website. I'll look at it properly tomorrow. Much appreciated!

Gwyn

[grantowi]

Gwyn,

How many drill halls in Wales on your database ?

According to - http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written...es-liquor-sales - there were 96 that were allowed to serve drink on Sundays in 1952 and I would suspect that given a chance for a Sunday tipple that would include most halls, so we're possibly looking for under 100 locations

Grant

[Rockdoc]

There was a canal in the Swansea Valley.

Is the valley wide enough or open enough for the photo? I don't know the area but my impression is that the South Wales valleys are much more steep-sided and narrower than this scene.

Keith

[Rockdoc]

Notwithstanding all the stuff in the distance, the drill hall and farm building in the foreground are at the end of a lane. That suggests a lane running out from a settlement below, or immediately left or right of the photographer. But then why doesn't the lane carry on to the railway or the dwellings?

I think the answer lies in the double avenue of trees in the background, which act as the boundary for all the fields. It's a canal or, more iikely, IMO, a river so if there's no bridge there's no need for the road to go any further.

Oh, and for building specialists - there are lots of chimneys on the drill hall and its dwelling - all on the outside walls. strikes me as odd, given that most dwellings have chimneys centrally, as they often served two rooms.

It isn't residential, though. It's primarily a hall with large, open spaces internally. The two-storey block on the end may have been designed with chimneys on the outside walls for symmetry or because there is an open space on the ground floor.

Keith

[welshdoc]

Not all Welsh valleys are narrow and steep there are areas in most particularly towards the coast which are wider and lower. I think it fair to say in this respect the Vale of Neath fits the bill and has a canal. Trouble is there doesnt appear to be anything to do with a Spittpull .

[Myrtle]

Is the valley wide enough or open enough for the photo? I don't know the area but my impression is that the South Wales valleys are much more steep-sided and narrower than this scene.

Keith

The Swansea valley is narrow in parts but wide in others. The terrace row of houses, wherever they are, remind me of industrial/mining housing, including those in tin mining areas.

Myrtle

[Dragon]

When I first got the card, the South Wales area came to my mind, and it somewhat reminds me of Vale of Neath. I still think that the blue line on my annotated card may well be a second railway track.

I have to go out this morning, but I'll answer the various questions when I come back. I've also remembered that I have a book on Welsh vernacular architecture which might help identify the local buildings' style.

I am grateful as ever for your input and for the private help offered. It's lovely to see people pooling ideas.

Gwyn

[Rockdoc]

The Swansea valley is narrow in parts but wide in others. The terrace row of houses, wherever they are, remind me of industrial/mining housing, including those in tin mining areas.

Well, Cornwall was the exclusive preserve of the GWR and there were a lot of tramways that could explain the level platform near the buildings. I don't think it's tin mining, though. Historically, the tin and copper ores were shipped from north-coast ports (Portreath was one of the biggest) to South Wales for smelting. The return cargo across the Bristol Channel was coal, which Cornwall lacks. The GWR stayed well away from the north coast and, at Portreath, there were rope-worked inclines with standard-gauge track that ran down to the docks and replaced the earlier tramway. On the other hand, china clay was historically shipped by rail both to the south-coast ports and inland. I don't know Cornwall all that well but the landscape in the photo doesn't look craggy enough to be granite-based. Even of the floor of the valley in the photo is not glaciated but the result of a meandering river-bed - the Trent and Derwent valleys around Derby are very wide and flat-bottomed, for example - I don't think Cornish rivers are long enough to have meanders.

It is certainly possible that the valley is near the coast and we're seeing the very beginning of an estuary. On the TV programme "Railway Walks", the presenter walked on a defunct line towards Barmouth that ran alongside the estuary.

Keith

[Rockdoc]

When I first got the card, the South Wales area came to my mind, and it reminds me of Vale of Neath. I still think that the blue line on my annotated card may well be a second railway track. Annotated card version 2

Having another look at the second annotated image, I don't think the track marked in green can be a railway for two reasons. One is the incline above the locomotive, which would be astonishingly steep. What you may have taken for track, looks to me like fencing alongside the drop to the railway. Remember that all railway lines had to be fenced, wherever they were, unless it was run as a tramway, in which case the locomotives and carriages had to have skirts fitted to cover all moving parts.

For the same reason, I doubt that the area marked in red as a vegetable plot near the railway line can be any such thing. Any chance of a close-up?

Keith

[Dragon]

I said the track marked in blue, which I labelled as "Single track railway line?" Pale blue / turquoise. Looked at under high magnification, we believe we can see rail-tracks.

The green is the road / path. I have re-labelled as 'road' to avoid ambiguity.

It is definitely a vegetable plot. You can pick out the rows and the bushes, which throw a shadow. They are growing sprouts.

[Dragon]

Edited

[Myrtle]

Swansea ValleyThis link gives some idea of the layout of the land in the Ystayfera area of the Swansea Valley although not the widest section of this paricular valley.

Myrtle

[Rockdoc]

Looking at this image again I can see a few interesting bits

The two-storey part has windows on the side that are roof-height to the single-storey sections. The middle chimney matches the single chimney on the other side. That unbalance makes me wonder whether only the RH part, as we look at it, is residential. It would be enormous if all of it were the caretaker's home so having offices and a schoolroom or similar would make sense. Would it be long enough for an indoor rifle range running lengthways?

I've also zoomed in and think that the triangular shape to the right of the end of the building is a man pushing or lifting something.

Keith

[phil@basildon]

Yes, that would be excellent.

There looks like a tablet of some sort on the left hand gable. Is it possible to enlarge the photograph to see if anything is written on it?

The train in the background suggests an Edwardian date for the photograph. You can just make out the locomotive has a polished brass dome and a light coloured cab roof which would suggest either the Great Eastern, North British, Great Central, or Midland Railways probably the Midland as the locomotive and carriages appear to be the same colour.