NigelS Posted 21 March , 2009 Share Posted 21 March , 2009 Gwyn, I've been having a poke around and found the following; I'm not sure if these might help or hinder with the dating & determination of whether Abercarn & Cwmcarn had their own drill halls though. at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancest...baps1904-12.htm in what appears to be a list of baptismsin the Risca area: Date: 25-Feb 1908 Forenames: Clifford Phillip Parents Forenames: Charles Edward Hayden & Louisa Surname: Parker Abode: The Drill Hall, Crosskeys Occupation: Drill Instructor Although this gives the location as Crosskeys, isn't it likely to be the same hall? Then there is http://www.welshcoalmines.co.uk/Gwent/Abercarn.htm relating to the mines at Abercarn which gives On February 8th 1867, in a twelve-hour day the colliers raised 1,369 tons of coal, after which the men were cheered on their way home and later treated with "home brewed" at the drill hall. From the Western Mail (Cardiff, Wales), Tuesday, April 19, 1887; Issue 5592 there is this As a slight aside, according to http://www.crosskeys.me.uk/history/pits.htm there was a "Drill Hall" Level at Crosskeys! NigelS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 21 March , 2009 Share Posted 21 March , 2009 Risca: It's possible that the headquaters of the Risca Male Voice Choir is the local Drill Hall. Sadly I am too far away to investigate. http://www.riscachoir.net/server/cat/0.html CGM Edited to add found this - see entry 187 http://www.wellingtonauctions.com/AuctionListing1.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 21 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 21 March , 2009 The drill hall at Crosskeys was at the junction of Risca Road and [now] Medart [Place], shown on the north side of the road on the 1901 OS map, between Crosskeys and Risca. The drill hall was still there in the '50s (shown on old map), but I've been informed that it's been demolished for housing [stc]. It's also known as Risca drill hall. Unfortunately, then, the Parker family are probably not the right people. The relevance of the extract which notes a DH in Abercarn in 1887 may fit in with the title of the postcard: New drill hall. A replacement? I'll save it anyway, because it all adds to the picture of DHs in use by their communities and we're hoarding masses of newspaper archive clippings for use in ways yet to be decided. Thanks for those, Nigel. Where did you get the Western Mail archive? The 'Drill Hall level' is the small coal mine which was behind the DH. The choir reference is curious. It says that, "The local Monmouthshire Regiment Drill Hall just outside the town centre survives but is now the home of the Risca Male Voice Choir." This fits with the Medart Place address (above). The website of Côr Meibion Risca gives its address as St Mary Street, and says that it is opposite the Exchange Inn. The photo looks very much like a chapel to me and the Exchange Inn is nowhere near the drill hall. If the DH has been demolished, it might have been that the choir had to find a new home (though I'm well aware that chapels were sometimes taken into use as drill halls). I think I might email the choir secretary and ask. Thanks for the pointer! (PS I know that drillhalls.org Welsh references need updating. Wales was among the first sections we did and we'll revisit the web-pages as soon as we can.We have a lot of material which isn't yet online.) Gwyn Edit: Kelly's Directory, 1914, gives Capt J Broackes, and G E Moore, colour sgt instructor, under Abercarn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelS Posted 21 March , 2009 Share Posted 21 March , 2009 Gwyn, I'd just found the Crosskeys drill hall on the Oldmaps site when you posted! I got the Western Mail article through Surrey County Council Library's "On line reference shelf" which gives "at home" access to the 19th Century British Library Newspaper collection (see http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelprestype/n...proj/ndproject/ ) It's accessed through Cengage learning /Gale Infotrac but requires SCC library membership to do so. May, if your lucky, be available through your county's library services? NigelS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 21 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 21 March , 2009 Ah! Thanks, Nigel. I imagine that it'll be available through my own county libraries, then. During the past few months, I've trawled The Guardian (paid for access) and extracted hundreds of articles and I know Graeme has done the same with some other nationals. I'll certainly investigate what other 19c papers are available when I've collated my stuff with Graeme's. I love the archaic formal language - the drill hall is well provided with a mode of ingress and egress (a door). Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelS Posted 21 March , 2009 Share Posted 21 March , 2009 I'll certainly investigate what other 19c papers are available when I've collated my stuff with Graeme's. http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelprestype/n...list/index.html gives a list. Was the original trawl through Kelly's done through microfilm/fiche? If your not aware of it, there are some Kelly's (and others) available here: http://www.historicaldirectories.org NigelS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 21 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 21 March , 2009 Yes. Graeme's original database was partly drawn from all the directories on historicaldirectories.org. Page by page by page. On dial-up. It took him five years. I would never have had the patience or diligence. Or my eyes would have packed up! Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 21 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 21 March , 2009 http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelprestype/n...list/index.html gives a list. Gosh. I think we need a grant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewb Posted 21 March , 2009 Share Posted 21 March , 2009 I understand that an OS map may have a delay of two years, as the data was gathered two years in advance of publication. (Oxford is a good example of this.) Your maps dates can be taken to mean that the DH was probably not there in 1912/3. If it's shown on the 1922 map, it was there in 1919/20. Gwyn, an OS map could have considerably more (or less) than 2 years delay between revisions or between survey and publication and it would have depended on the nature of the location in question and the expected change. A city or area of high population tended be updated a lot more regularly and frequntly than one of a rural nature. The chances are it would be but I don't think you could necessarily guarantee that if it's shown in 1922 it would have been there in 1919/20. In addition there were different print revisions from the same survey, with none or minimum change. Whether a new printing was made could have just depended on whether more map stocks were needed but every new revision or printing will have a different reference number. Maps for more popular tourist areas tended to be printed more often than ones which the public was less interested in. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 21 March , 2009 Share Posted 21 March , 2009 The clues to the date are in the photograph. The GWR train in the background could not be any earlier than 1908 when the single colour livery was introduced, as the train is all one colour this would put it at 1909/10 at the earliest. Two coaches on the train would have only recently painted as the white painted roofs are still clean, they did not stay white for long behind a steam locomotive. The white painted roofs disappeared during WW1 as they could easily be seen from the air despite Wales being out of Zeppelin range. This gives a date of between 1910 to the outbreak of war. As it should be reported in the local newspapers this should be the next port of call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 21 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 21 March , 2009 My remark on OS maps was made in the light of information given to me by Oxford Library Local Studies Department, with whom I spent a long time poring over the region's OS maps. Apologies for inaccuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Bennitt Posted 21 March , 2009 Share Posted 21 March , 2009 My remark on OS maps was made in the light of information given to me by Oxford Library Local Studies Department, with whom I spent a long time poring over the region's OS maps. Apologies for inaccuracy. Hey Gwyn, having sparked off this great thread you don't have to apologise for anything cheers Martin B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 22 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 22 March , 2009 Thanks, Martin. Throughout everything I've done with the whole drill halls project, I've (we've) tried to be academically rigorous and focussed, though its public face is at present a website, which restricts the scope for elegant prose and sophisticated, incisive argument. As far as I know, we haven't put anything on line which is not sourced and checked; and where we are unsure, we have qualified our information. I have to say that is more than some heritage organisations' publications. It embarrasses me to have apparently made a mistake. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 22 March , 2009 Share Posted 22 March , 2009 The clues to the date are in the photograph. The GWR train in the background could not be any earlier than 1908 when the single colour livery was introduced, as the train is all one colour this would put it at 1909/10 at the earliest. Two coaches on the train would have only recently painted as the white painted roofs are still clean, they did not stay white for long behind a steam locomotive. The white painted roofs disappeared during WW1 as they could easily be seen from the air despite Wales being out of Zeppelin range. This gives a date of between 1910 to the outbreak of war. As it should be reported in the local newspapers this should be the next port of call. This gives a good narrowing down as to dates. My own guess is that the architecture is certainly pre Great War and likely late Victorian or Edwardian. Post Great War such buildings took on a more 'Modernist' appearance - less ornate and squarer. Only my guesswork, but I think the railway dating ties in with my own guessings. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewb Posted 22 March , 2009 Share Posted 22 March , 2009 Gwyn, I wouldn't be embarrassed about anything and the probability is that your estimate of the date is near the truth anyway. I think you've done a brilliant job in starting and leading the discussion in this thread and for the mammoth task of working on the Driil Halls project which is a really worthwhile cause. All of this has sparked my interest in the area in question and I'm going to try to get over to Cwmcarn in a week or two as it's not very far from me. It would be good to stand on that same hill and look down on the site. If I get any photos I'll add them here and if I get the chance I'll pop into the Gwent Record Office and look at their maps. Cheers, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 22 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 22 March , 2009 The line taken by this forum is that if people make a mistake, it throws the entirety of their published body into doubt. I do not wish a mistake of mine to detract from the quality of Graeme's work. Thank you for your offer, Andy. It'll be very interesting to see if anything emerges. I won't be around for a while, so please don't take lack of comment as uninterest. Thank you all most sincerely for your input. It really is appreciated. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantowi Posted 22 March , 2009 Share Posted 22 March , 2009 Thats not entirley true Gwyn, most of the forum members accept that mistakes are made when dealing with a subject that is 90 years old, it is only the odd few that like to jump on a mistake and blow it all out of proportion. Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 23 March , 2009 Share Posted 23 March , 2009 Gwyn, speaking as someone with a PhD and who has worked at a university as a research engineer, I can say quite categorically that no academic work is free from flaws. Hypotheses are proposed on the basis of the knowledge available at the time and may be reinforced or refuted as what is known changes. Indeed, there's one school of thought that says publishing encourages others to seek flaws but that, by doing their own research, the detractors also push back the boundaries of ignorance by expanding the total of what is known. The best any of us can work for is intellectual rigour on our work and an ability to accept positive criticism about what we publish. Anyone who insists on perfection in publications is deluded at best and a fool at worst, as is the researcher who cannot accept positive criticism. The DH project is worth while. They were an integral part of British life for a long time but have all but disappeared from the public consciousness, like horse-drawn vehicles from our roads. You can't ignore criticism but you should ignore anything that doesn't add to the whole of what you and Graeme are trying to achieve. Nil illegitimi carborundum! Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPAE Posted 23 March , 2009 Share Posted 23 March , 2009 Ah. Foolish and Deluded. You read AA Milne too, Keith! Phil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 23 March , 2009 Share Posted 23 March , 2009 I'm certainly a bear of very little brain!! Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 23 March , 2009 Share Posted 23 March , 2009 Gwyn. I have thoroughly enjoyed playing Sherlock Holmes and I hope I have made a contribution however small. Roll on the next one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Studd Posted 6 April , 2009 Share Posted 6 April , 2009 Just to let you know it is not Tebay in Cumbria. I live nearby the scene that has been described by others. I will admit it looks very similiar. There are however railway houses (in three blocks) near to where the railway track runs. There is nothing left of the railway that was used to great effect during the Great War when it was a major junction for three rail lines Have just finished writing a dissertation for Lancaster University on the subject of "The effect of the Great War on a North Westmorland Village". This dealt with those from the area who enlisted, those who worked on the railways , and those who worked the land and those who made the ultimate sacrifice. Have maps of the railways system as it was in 1914 at Tebay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewb Posted 9 April , 2009 Share Posted 9 April , 2009 Hi Gwyn I was in Cwmcarn today and took a few pictures which might be of interest to followers of this thread. It's quite difficult to get to the original vantage point due to trees so I was slightly further to the left (i.e. south). Attached are three pictures - one showing a similar view across the valley, one showing a close-up of the left hand terrace, York Place (in the centre of your picture) and another showing the view along the railway line towards York Place. If I had been standing in this spot in your old photo the train would have been coming directly towards me. Unfortunately, there is no evidence at all on the ground of the old Drill Hall. I hope these are of interest and help to bring the scene up to date. Cheers, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 9 April , 2009 Share Posted 9 April , 2009 Well done Andy! When I looked on Google Earth I noticed that the origional vantage point was covered in trees, you have done very well to get as close as you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grantowi Posted 10 April , 2009 Share Posted 10 April , 2009 Well done Andy, looks like you win the prize .. I knew that top "railway track" was a road Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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