phil@basildon Posted 19 March , 2009 Share Posted 19 March , 2009 I don't know about a milk train. I don't want to seem dismissive, but I actually think it's nearer mid-day. I'm fantasising that it's a holiday train (along the lines Keith suggested in the section I've quoted.) I'm thinking it's taking trippers from the Valleys to the seaside for a day out or a lovely holiday. I can feel a story coming on. Spiteful Row is casting its sinister shadow on the scene... I'll let you know when I win a literary award with this one. Gwyn We now know that the line in question is a branch line. The northern terminus of the line is Ebbw Vale only about 6 or 7 miles to the north. The southern end of the branch is only about 4 or 5 miles away in Newport. The short 4 or 6 wheel coaches are passenger vehicles and luggage vans would be marshalled at either end of the train. There are features of the first coach that suggest that it is a van but it was not unusual for rail passengers luggage to get a better ride than its owners. Perishable goods such as milk was conveyed on passenger trains so the term "milk train" often meant a passenger train. Given that the area was predominately working class any holiday trains would be of the "Sunday school outing" type, it would not be unusual for these to start out as early as 4 am. If the train was expected to travel any great distance a tender locomotive would be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 19 March , 2009 Share Posted 19 March , 2009 And they might know something of the history of the site or be stimulated to research it and, perhaps, the men who drilled there throughout its life. It would be nice to get that for here are for the Drill Halls site. Keith What about the history teacher of the school on the site. He/she might even be able to enlighten us further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 19 March , 2009 Share Posted 19 March , 2009 We now know that the line in question is a branch line. The northern terminus of the line is Ebbw Vale only about 6 or 7 miles to the north. The southern end of the branch is only about 4 or 5 miles away in Newport. The short 4 or 6 wheel coaches are passenger vehicles and luggage vans would be marshalled at either end of the train. There are features of the first coach that suggest that it is a van but it was not unusual for rail passengers luggage to get a better ride than its owners. Perishable goods such as milk was conveyed on passenger trains so the term "milk train" often meant a passenger train. Given that the area was predominately working class any holiday trains would be of the "Sunday school outing" type, it would not be unusual for these to start out as early as 4 am. If the train was expected to travel any great distance a tender locomotive would be used. You're making the modern assumption that traffic is restricted to the branch, Phil. It's been reopened to passenger traffic and runs to Cardiff, which it could easily have done back then. Trains could have taken trippers anywhere on the network, though the Mumbles, Gower and Pembrokeshire seem most likely. It was a GWR branch after all so through-running wouldn't have been a problem. In this photo I think the pale blobs are passengers seen through the windows. I don't think that a special would necessarily have been hauled by a tender loco on this branch. It's not hard to imagine a train being consolidated at a main station, like Cardiff, from short trains brought in from the valley lines, with a similar separation on the return. Keith - amazed how this thread won't die! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 19 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 19 March , 2009 Yep, I'm sure the woman in the second carriage back is weaing a hat with cherries on. If we could just read her bloke's newspaper, we'd have a dead cert for the date. (I know what milk trains are, really, coming from a farming family and hearing anecdotes.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 19 March , 2009 Share Posted 19 March , 2009 Yes, after carefull examination of the close up it looks like a passenger/luggage coach, but the length and angle of the shadows indicates early morning not much later than about 8 o'clock which would still not be unusual even for a holiday train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 19 March , 2009 Share Posted 19 March , 2009 <Slaps forehead!> You're right, Phil. I couldn't work out why there were no passengers at the engine end of the coach but if it's a 3rd Class Brake-composite it makes perfect sense. Early starts were definitely par for the course. I remember a frantic Saturday morning when my Dad decided to take us on a train to Mablethorpe for the day on the spur of the moment. We missed it at Nottingham Victoria and eventually got on at Bingham. The train divided at Willoughby Junction, with the other section going on to Skegness. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larney Posted 19 March , 2009 Share Posted 19 March , 2009 And out of interest, here is a milk train- on a siding off the GWR line at Whitland Dairy, where I used to work before it was closed- after the milk trains had long finished of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Gorst Posted 19 March , 2009 Share Posted 19 March , 2009 Hi All Well done one and all, sorry I couldn't help more towards the end as Edina maps went down then had a major network outage at work (oh and work interfered a bit as well). I'll try and have a look tomorrow and see if there's anything more on the digimaps site. Now what will I do in my lunch hour and how do we get it made a classic. again congrats to all the sherlocks with their magnifiers! edit for typos (its been a long day) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 19 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 19 March , 2009 Hi Anthony Thanks for all your interest. If you do have chance, I'd like to know whether there's a drill hall marked in Abercarn (just north of Cwmcarn). I can't see it on the old maps myself, but I'm quite tired of peering at a screen! The reason I ask is that Kelly records a drill hall in Abercarn, in 1914, but gives no location. I'm wondering if the one at Cwmcarn is the one he might have meant. Cheers Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 19 March , 2009 Share Posted 19 March , 2009 On the Old Maps site I see that there's a spot marked Abercarn-fach at the junction of two valleys, immediately to the north of Cwmcarn. With the DH further north again it may have been classed as Abercarn fach or even in the parish (civil or parochial) of Abercorn (fawr?) Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelS Posted 20 March , 2009 Share Posted 20 March , 2009 Although Chapel Farm is given in the 1901 census (Abercarn, enumeration district 10), the drill hall doesn't appear; so either it had yet to be built or there was no caretaker in residence so it didn't get listed. The 1911 census for the area has yet to appear. This site may be of interest: http://www.crosskeys.me.uk There is a history section - no mention of the drill hall - at http://www.crosskeys.me.uk/history/ And photos, both old and new, of Cwmcarn - again none of the drill hall - at http://www.crosskeys.me.uk/photos/index.htm NigelS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 20 March , 2009 Share Posted 20 March , 2009 Although Chapel Farm is given in the 1901 census (Abercarn, enumeration district 10), the drill hall doesn't appear; so either it had yet to be built or there was no caretaker in residence so it didn't get listed. The 1911 census for the area has yet to appear. This site may be of interest: http://www.crosskeys.me.uk There is a history section - no mention of the drill hall - at http://www.crosskeys.me.uk/history/ And photos, both old and new, of Cwmcarn - again none of the drill hall - at http://www.crosskeys.me.uk/photos/index.htm NigelS I have just looked at the photos of Cwmcarn (The Morgan collection 2) the third photograph if I am not mistaken is of the streets adjacent to the drill hall (Chappel Farm Terrace and Marne street). Which means that the DH is just to the leftand the fourth photograph shows the quarry were the origional was taken from. I forgot to mention thisis the set of photos bottom right with the white terrace of cottages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewb Posted 20 March , 2009 Share Posted 20 March , 2009 A little bit more information which may help (or hinder). I was intrigued by the presence of what seems to be a station to the right of the train. I checked my maps from around 1910-1920 and discovered that there is no station shown at Cwmcarn. I then checked the ones from the 1940s and 1950s and this time the existence of a station, or halt, at this location is clearly indicated. I checked a pre-grouping gazetteer for the railways of the UK (i.e. at the date when most of the nation's railway companies got grouped into the "big four" - LNER, LMS, SR and GWR in 1923) and again no station at Cwmcarn is shown. This made me believe that the station opened some time after the rest of the line. I then contacted the Monmouthshire Railway Society who have been very helpful. From Hansard, which documents all the Parliamentary debates, there is an entry for 14th December 1922 which goes as follows. "Mr Barker asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport if he is aware that there is no railway station at Cwmcarn, Monmouthshire; that the inhabitants have been pressing the Great Western Railway Company for many years to erect a station there; that there are several thousand population residing at Cwmcarn and that there is no station within nearly two miles; and will he use his good offices with the Great Western Railway Company with a view to getting a station made there? Lieutenant Col Ashley replied: The Ministry of Transport has no statutory powers in this matter, which is one for the consideration of the railway company. I am, however, bringing the Hon. Member's suggestion to the company's notice." So that ties up with what I observed on the maps. A station did subsequently open at Cwmcarn on 2nd March 1925, according to the 2006 book "Welsh Valleys Abertillery and Ebbw Vale Lines" which also includes a more recent photo, attached here. You can just make out the double track referred to in a previous post. Intriguingly, in the text of the book there is also a reference to Cwmcarn station being built close to the site of the earlier Chapel Bridge station. Whatever this might have been, if it's correct it's possibly one from the very days of the railway in the 19th century, probably unlikely that shown in the postcard. I have also found a reference in the GWR Archives to a diagram or plan of "Cwmcarn Halt" dated 1924 which ties up with the dates above. The station did not have goods facilities and closed on 30 April 1962 when passenger services ceased from Newport to Ebbw Vale and Brynmawr. I hope all of this may help to date the picture a little. Is it possible to get a zoom of what appears to be the station on the postcard? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil@basildon Posted 20 March , 2009 Share Posted 20 March , 2009 A little bit more information which may help (or hinder). I was intrigued by the presence of what seems to be a station to the right of the train. I checked my maps from around 1910-1920 and discovered that there is no station shown at Cwmcarn. I then checked the ones from the 1940s and 1950s and this time the existence of a station, or halt, at this location is clearly indicated. I checked a pre-grouping gazetteer for the railways of the UK (i.e. at the date when most of the nation's railway companies got grouped into the "big four" - LNER, LMS, SR and GWR in 1923) and again no station at Cwmcarn is shown. This made me believe that the station opened some time after the rest of the line. I then contacted the Monmouthshire Railway Society who have been very helpful. From Hansard, which documents all the Parliamentary debates, there is an entry for 14th December 1922 which goes as follows. "Mr Barker asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport if he is aware that there is no railway station at Cwmcarn, Monmouthshire; that the inhabitants have been pressing the Great Western Railway Company for many years to erect a station there; that there are several thousand population residing at Cwmcarn and that there is no station within nearly two miles; and will he use his good offices with the Great Western Railway Company with a view to getting a station made there? Lieutenant Col Ashley replied: The Ministry of Transport has no statutory powers in this matter, which is one for the consideration of the railway company. I am, however, bringing the Hon. Member's suggestion to the company's notice." So that ties up with what I observed on the maps. A station did subsequently open at Cwmcarn on 2nd March 1925, according to the 2006 book "Welsh Valleys Abertillery and Ebbw Vale Lines" which also includes a more recent photo, attached here. You can just make out the double track referred to in a previous post. Intriguingly, in the text of the book there is also a reference to Cwmcarn station being built close to the site of the earlier Chapel Bridge station. Whatever this might have been, if it's correct it's possibly one from the very days of the railway in the 19th century, probably unlikely that shown in the postcard. I have also found a reference in the GWR Archives to a diagram or plan of "Cwmcarn Halt" dated 1924 which ties up with the dates above. The station did not have goods facilities and closed on 30 April 1962 when passenger services ceased from Newport to Ebbw Vale and Brynmawr. I hope all of this may help to date the picture a little. Is it possible to get a zoom of what appears to be the station on the postcard? Andy My railway atlas shows a spur leaving the line just south of were the photograph was taken. This is marked as Cwmcarn but it may be a Coal Mine. The GWR built many such stations in the 1920's in the Welsh valley's usually with timber platforms and corrugated iron buildings, if it was closed in 1962 little if any trace would remain. The postcard clearly dates to before 1922 because of the livery of the coaches which ceased to be used at that date (2 of the coaches appear to be newly painted, the clerestory and the rearmost coach). Chapel Bridge is just off the photo to the left of the train and could be were the spur left the line. There was a book published a couple of years ago that listed all stations in the British Isles with the opening and closing dates, your library may have a copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 20 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 20 March , 2009 I'm sorry, Andy, but I can't see what you mean as the possible station to the right of the train. Do you mean the dark shape up the bank after the end of the train, towards the cottages? Looking at it with a high strength magnifier, the dark bits are two bushes, one at each corner, and behind them are rows of what are probably vegetables. Between the bushes and the rail track is a stretch of rough grassy land or similar. There is a footbridge further to the right, which I marked on the annotated map. I marked the possible continuation alongside the track (off to the right of the card) as query fopotpath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 20 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 20 March , 2009 I've been in communication with the person whom Alasdair contacted and he now has a copy of the original, non-annotated picture. From photos taken in summer, 1999, placed on the Crosskeys site, it seems that the drill hall was demolished before mid-1999. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewb Posted 20 March , 2009 Share Posted 20 March , 2009 Hi Gwyn, yes I did mean that dark shape, which looked like a small building but I can see now it's two bushes. I had been referring back to some earlier posts where I saw a station being proposed as a possibility. Oh well, just a thought! By the way the picture of Cwmcarn station I attached was taken around the time it closed in 1962 and documented as such in a number of books. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 20 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 20 March , 2009 Hi Andy Thanks very much for looking. The extract was interesting in its own right. When you see the size of the place even at the beginning of the 20c, it's astonishing that there wasn't a station. I think the dates you have are important, though. I can look at the old maps, see where the station was and it might be possible to see where it is / where it would be in relation to my postcard. I'll see how far I can take it. Cheers Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelS Posted 20 March , 2009 Share Posted 20 March , 2009 As an alternative to Google, Multimap.com also has good aerial & "Birdseye" views of the area +OS maps NigelS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 20 March , 2009 Share Posted 20 March , 2009 I'm glad the mystery has been solved, and very pleased to see the forum at its best, pulling together – congratulations to all. I'm rather sad, though, that the splendid 'New' Drill Hall isn't there any more – I was looking forward to a 'now' photo, captioned "Drill Hall and Spiteful + Gwyn". Perhaps we could have a go at another one that has a bus or a tram in it ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Gorst Posted 20 March , 2009 Share Posted 20 March , 2009 Gwyn AS promised had a look on Edina - can't see any drill hall other than 'our' one in the environs of Abercarn on the 1:2500 County series (2nd Revision 1906-1939). In the first revision (1893-1915) the site of the DRill Hall is marked as allotments. On the 1:10000 series first revision 1886-1914 next to the the Drill Hall is marked Chapel (Remains of) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 20 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 20 March , 2009 Thank you very much for looking, Anthony. Kelly's Directories aren't always absolutely accurate. We've found discrepancies which may be, say, a road merge being overlooked, or a hamlet name being incorrect, and sometimes these have only come to light when we've actually walked the area or been to the local library's local studies department. Wales has been particularly superficially recorded in places. I suspect that some of his researchers just gave up when pressed for time or faced with language difficulties. Having said that, parts of the army don't know where its drill halls are and military museums either care a lot or care not a jot. Some regiments have literally destroyed their records, having no regard to their value for future researchers. So I think on this one, I'll keep an open mind. The DH is clearly in Cwmcarn and it's possible that this is the DH Kelly meant in 1914. He records some of Cwmcarn under Abercarn and some under Mynyddyslwyn (the parish). I understand that an OS map may have a delay of two years, as the data was gathered two years in advance of publication. (Oxford is a good example of this.) Your maps dates can be taken to mean that the DH was probably not there in 1912/3. If it's shown on the 1922 map, it was there in 1919/20. I don't believe there was a spate of DH construction after the war - indeed, there was an appetite for getting rid of them - but there was a lot of DH building in 1913/14. Cheers Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 20 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 20 March , 2009 I'm glad the mystery has been solved, and very pleased to see the forum at its best, pulling together – congratulations to all. I'm rather sad, though, that the splendid 'New' Drill Hall isn't there any more – I was looking forward to a 'now' photo, captioned "Drill Hall and Spiteful + Gwyn". Perhaps we could have a go at another one that has a bus or a tram in it ... I can assure you, Mick, that the drill hall looks better sans moi. However, you want a tram, I give you a tram! Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 20 March , 2009 Author Share Posted 20 March , 2009 As an alternative to Google, Multimap.com also has good aerial & "Birdseye" views of the area +OS maps Yes. It's all amazing. Twenty years ago, we couldn't have solved this mystery. I like Live Search Maps too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temporary Viking Posted 20 March , 2009 Share Posted 20 March , 2009 Oh yes. I could keep you going with "mystery drill halls" for quite a long time. The next Mystery drill hall please. This has been facinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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