41st division

[koyli]

Hi all,

I'm researching the attack on the Messines Ridge 1917.

I have been able to put together all the units and their attack positions, except for the 41st Division.

I am weary of using other sources than the original. Not being able to go to the PRO at this time and needing the information as soon as possible, I have been using the Divisional Histories.

Could anyone who has the Divisional history check how the units were formed up for the initial advance.

Thank You

KOYLI

[Chris_Baker]

There is no Divisional history, I'm afraid.

[JulianB]

There is a very good account - with divisional positions - in

Ian Passingham, 2004 (ppbk edn), Pillars of Fire, Sutton Publishing.

As my grandfather was in 41 Div, I can tell you that they were around St Eloi

[koyli]

Thank you for the replies.

Passingham is a problem, as I found some mistakes in the line up he uses.

That is why I'm looking at alternative sources.

The intention is to make a new map for the Messines Museum, so I need to get it right.

KOYLI

[JulianB]

OK, point taken. but in trying to recreate my grandfather's position in the battle, I have found that Passingham's description tallies with the relevant Div, Bde and Coy War Diaries and reports (123 Bde for example had a v good "after battle" round up), though I have to admit, my interest lies in one small unit of the 41st.

[Longboat]

KOYLI

Have you tried "The Oueen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment" by Capt. C.T. Atkinson. Within it is a handrawn map with emphasis on the brigades of which the Royal West Kent Btns were part of. They are taken from or based on maps in the official war diaries.

regards Stuart.

[koyli]

Hello Stuart,

Thank you for the tip. I haven't got that unit History.

I wil look it up in the Caenpeel centre in Ieper next week.

KOYLI

[Longboat]

KOYLI

If you get any problems let me know and I'll have a go at scanning the map in.

regards Stuart

[JulianB]

I've looked at Atkinson too, In fact here are other regtl histories that I've been going through relating to the 41st - in fact specifically 123 Bde:

Leather, KJW, 1920, The History of the Locally Raised 20th (Service) Battalion, the Durham Light Infantry, privately published, printed by R.Youll, Sunderland.

Miles, W, 1920, The Durham Forces in the Field; Vol. II The Service Battalions of the Durham Light Infantry, Cassell & Co Ltd., London.

Neave, EWJ, 1931, History of the 11th Battalion, The Queen’s, Brixton ‘Free Press’.

Sheen, J, 2007, Wearside Pals: The 20th (Service) Battalion, The Durham Light Infantry, Pen and Sword Books Ltd., Barnsley.

Wyrall, E, 1926-1929, The Die-Hards in the Great War, 2 vols, Harrison & Sons, London.

(this last is the only source I have for the 23rd Mddx - apart from their WD)

and, of course Becke who provides a great amount of detail;

Becke, AF, 1935-1945, History of the Great War: Order of Battle of Divisions; parts 1 – 4. 6 vols. HMSO, London.

Here are the relevant WDs I’ve looked at

41st Div, WO 95/2617, 4241, 4243

123 Inf Bde, WO 95/2636, 2637, 4243

11th (Service) Bn Queen’s, WO 95/2638, 4243

10th (Service) Bn Queen’s Own (Royal West Kent Regiment), WO 95/2638, 4243

23rd (Service) Bn Middlesex Regiment), WO 95/2639; 4243

20th (Service) Bn Durham Light Infantry, WO 95/2639, 4243;

123 Coy, Machine Gun Corps, WO 95/2639, 4243

233 Field Company, Royal Engineers, WO 95/4242

299 Company, Army Service Corps, WO 95/2631

Sorry, I haven’t broken them down by date in my bibliography.

Somewhere I have the relevant Army and Corps details but can’t put my finger on them at the mo – certainly in Becke

Julian

[koyli]

Hello JUlian,

Thank you for replying, and please

excuse my delay in answering.

I will be looking into some of them on Wednesday,

Thanks again to all.

KOYLI

[JulianB]

de rien, you're welcome

they certainly have Becke at TNA, possibly some of the other books too, though I tend to use eg BL or IWM library