royalty in world war one

[Bernard_Lewis]

The then Prince of Wales certainly visited numerous units of the 38th (Welsh) Division at the front. I think he was attached to its HQ but have not researched it so stand to be corrected.

Bernard

[Terry_Reeves]

Edward V111, later the Duke of Windsor, after his abdication served in the army during WW1. As this photograph shows, he was in the Welsh Guards: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A030596.jpg. Neither his father nor Lord Kitchener wanted him to serve overseas, but eventually they relented with the proviso that he served in a staff post away from the front-line. I have another photograph of him somewhere that shows him wearing the ribbon of the Military Cross, which he was allegedly awarded by his father to make up for his disappointment when he was sent back to the UK.

TR

[SiegeGunner]

"September 22nd 1915

My dearest Papa,

First I must apologise ... I think you know how distasteful it is to me to wear these two war decorations having never done any fighting & having always been kept well out of danger !! I feel so ashamed to wear medals which I only have because of my position, when there are so many thousands of gallant officers who lead a terrible existence in the trenches and who have been in battles of the fiercest kind (many severely wounded or sick as a result)who have not been decorated. No doubt I look at this thing from a wrong & foolish point of view but this is the view I take ...

Ever your most devoted son

David"

"A King's Story" (Memoirs of the Duke of Windsor), pp. 117-8

This letter was written in response to one from KGV instructing the PoW to wear medals awarded to him by France and Russia. "A King's Story" does not mention the MC, but I think that if he had felt differently about that, he would have written about it and explained why. I suspect that he did not wish to offend his family or other officers awarded the MC by mentioning it specifically, and included his letter re the foreign medals in his memoirs as an oblique or indirect indication of his feelings on the matter.

[aradgick]

The Maharajah of Jodhpur is listed on the Roll of Honour at Wellington College, Berkshire, but I haven't been able to find anything on his service or death.

Andrewr

[Ian Riley]

WWI shreaded the nobility in the UK. Previously the armed forces had been the option for the 'spares;' the 'heirs' were too valuable. In WWI whilst the Prince of Wales was kept from the fighting services, that didn't hold true for other heirs and many were lost. Amongst the consequences of that was a loss of many stately homes: estates were hit by death duties and the loss of the vested interest in maintaining them.

I thought death duties were not payable in cases of deaths in action. Is this my imagination or something from WW2?

Ian

[Ian Riley]

There is a book " The Aristocracy and the Great War" by Gerald Gliddon. It covers some 600 out of 680 families. The coverage is light on Scotland and Ireland. This book lists a total of 270 aristocrats killed.

For the truly dedicated there is a massive volume called 'Armorial Families' by AC Fox Davies. I think that there was a post-WW1 edition circa 1928 . Greatly concerned with heraldry, it will howevever (if the pre-war editions are anything to go by list) the dates of birth and death of every sprig of the aristocracy , British royalty and gentry. My guess is that there will be over 1000 large format pages of small font type.

Gerald Gliddon sounds more accessible

Ian

[Guest]

Armorial Families available on archive.org Huge Downloads

Mike

[James A Pratt III]

There was a Romanov Prince KIA in 1914 as a Lt serving in a cavalry unit

Grand Duke Michael, the tsar's younger brother was both a cavalry division later a Cavalry corps commander in WW I. He breifly became Tsar but abdicated. He did not want the job. He was murdered by the Cheka (Soviet secret police) in June 1918

Grand Duke Paul commanded the I Guards Corps for awhile he was shot in the Peter and paul fortress in January 1919 with 3 other grand dukes

At about the same time ex-Tsar Nicholas II and his family were being murdered another group of Romanov princes, a grand duke and grand duchess Elizibeth (Alexandra's sister) were also murdered. Some of the men did see military service during the war.

There were at the time a number of Russian and other princely families in the Russian empire who did see active service during the war. How many of them died in WW I and the Civil war that followed i don't know.

[Ian Riley]

Thanks for the responses. I have learned alot . As far as who is royalty or the nobility, I guess is in the eye of the beholder. I would assume that in the united kingdom most of the nobility would have served in a guard's unit. Would I be correct in thinking that?

Thanks

I would think that there would be a fair number in the Guards. The Master of Belhaven was a gunner I think. Fergus Bowes-Lyon was in the Black Watch. I would guess there would be a fair number in their county regiments (especially in Scotland where county is more on Clan lines) or perhaps more especially the King's Royal Rifle Corps and certainly in the cavalry. Julian Grenfell, eldest son of Lord Dessborough, was in the Royal Dragoons. The second son of the Earl of Sefton was killed as a midshipmam Royal Navy at Jutland.

Lieutenant CHARLES WILLIAM REGINALD DUNCOMBE, (found by searching for 'Earl' on the CWGC database under additional information although you get a lot men actually called Earl or from Earl's Court or Earlestown, not a fount of aristocratic upbringing - I taught there for 35 years!)

Yorkshire Hussars Yeomanry Commanding 21st Bn. King's Royal Rifle Corps

2nd Earl of Feversham. Son of William Reginald Duncombe, Viscount Helmsley, elder son of 1st Earl of Feversham; husband of Countess of Feversham (now Lady Marjorie Beckett, of Kirkdale Manor, Nawton, Yorks)

CARNEGIE, DAVID ALEXANDER Captain RFA

Son of Lt.-Col. The Hon. Douglas Carnegie, 2nd son of 9th Earl of Northesk, and Margaret Jean, his wife, of Fair Oak, Petersfield, Hants.

and we have Lord Roberts and Lord Kitchener.

Ian

Sorry, the fonts are not playing to my rules

.

[Ian Riley]

Armorial Families available on archive.org Huge Downloads

Mike

Thanks Mike. I have a pre-war copy (one volume). It would be interesting to know how accurate the on-line version is - if it uses OCR the print is pretty miniscule.

[Perth Digger]

I have a photocopy of a list of British Noble War Dead, which I got from the web in 2010. I think it can be found at:

http://myreader.co.u...g/11811570.aspx

To quote: 'This is a list ONLY of men who were killed serving in World Wars and held, or if they had not been killed in World Wars would have succeeded to, British hereditary titles that still exist or have titled relatives still extant'. Thus, a list of both World Wars. I've counted 249 in this list for WW1.

Mike

[nigelfe]

Interesting topic, but very hard to judge !

- Some photos show the presence of the English King, behind the front, viewing ww1.

There has not been an 'English King' (ie King of England) since the Act of Union 1707 (William III, who was a Dutchman was king at that time) and if you want a stricter definition you have to go back longer. Since 1707 the monarch has been King (or Queen) of Great Britain (later, "and (Northern) Ireland"). England is not mentioned. 'Great Britain' is the correct title for the landmass and islands comprising the territories of England, Scotland and Wales. I won't get into the constitutional complexities of the Isle of Man, etc. 'Great ' is as in 'Greater', eg 'Greater London' or 'Greater Los Angeles' or 'Greater Sydney' meaning extended area.

I should add that many people find references to an 'English King/Queen' offensive in a post 1707 context.

[rickpreston@nasuwt.net]

I hope I am not been political though I will be censured if I am.

A participant earlier used the word "eviltaxman". Tax is collected so that we may have decent society, if people want good roads, a health service-free at the point of reciept, free and full time Education State pensions, social housing and many other state provisions then they can only be provided if taxes are collected.

As for the Aristocrats, it was this group who created and or fostered the mindset which caused the countries to develop their ultra nationalistic views that drove them to war. If they died in disproportunate numbers then one might say those who sow then they reap!

Richard

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Richard

"eviltaxman" was the self-chosen pseudonym of a Forum member who was a tax inspector off-Forum. He is now one of the Moderators and, like all the Mods, now posts under fhis own name, which I won't give so as not to embarrass him!

Ron

[keithmroberts]

Prince Albert, later King George VI served in the Royal Navy and his ship HMS Collingwood was in action at Jutland. Presumably as a younger brother he was regarded as dispensable,

Keith

[Old Tom]

Did nations came before aristocrats or did aristocrats come first? France was a republic.

Old Tom

[rickpreston@nasuwt.net]

Thank you Ron. You have given a reasonable reason why the word was used. it was not my interpretation on it when I read it .. Thank you

[PhilB]

I feel so ashamed to wear medals which I only have because of my position, when there are so many thousands of gallant officers who lead a terrible existence in the trenches and who have been in battles of the fiercest kind (many severely wounded or sick as a result)who have not been decorated.

Pity the Prince didn`t mention the hundreds of thousands of ORs in the same position?

[michaeldr]

Prince Albert, later King George VI served in the Royal Navy and his ship HMS Collingwood was in action at Jutland. Presumably as a younger brother he was regarded as dispensable,

Keith

Albert Frederick Arthur George

entered RN College Osborne 14 Jan 1909 - left 13 Dec 1910

Resumed studies at RN College Dartmouth 14 Jan 1911 – left 18 Dec 1912 [placed 64^th in order of merit]

Joined training cruiser Cumberland 17 Jan 1913

Passed exams and rated Midshipman 15 Sept 1913 and same day appointed to Collingwood, joining her on 29 September

Promoted Sub-Lieutenant 15 May 1916 and

Acting Lieutenant 30 Aug 1916

Commended for his service at Jutland

Appointed to Victory additional for service on the Staff of the C-in-C, Portsmouth 20 Nov 1916

Above from The Naval Who's Who 1917 - I think that he later (1918?) went into the RAF

TNWW 1917 also mentions HRH Prince George Edward Alexander Edmund

born York Cottage 20 Dec 1902, who entered the RN College Osborne as a cadet on 21 September 1916

[Perth Digger]

I quite agree, Richard. Aristocrats like Winston Churchill were a total waste of space. I look forward to seeing the evidence that only the aristocracy was responsible for ultra-nationalism, whatever that means, in an age when the middle classes ruled. As there were only about 500 aristocratic families, they must really have rushed about in their Roll Royces stirring up nationalist feeling on Mafeking Night.

[michaeldr]

Aristocrats like Winston Churchill were a total waste of space.

In the context of the first decades of the twentieth century, WSC was a Liberal, and his views terrified the land-owning aristocracy/Tory party

see http://homepage.ntlworld.com/janusg/chrchl.htm

They never forgave him for this and plotted his downfall in 1915

[Perth Digger]

He was still from an aristocratic family. My point is that you cannot tar any social group with the same brush.

[hazelclark]

I hope I am not been political though I will be censured if I am.

A participant earlier used the word "eviltaxman". Tax is collected so that we may have decent society, if people want good roads, a health service-free at the point of reciept, free and full time Education State pensions, social housing and many other state provisions then they can only be provided if taxes are collected.

As for the Aristocrats, it was this group who created and or fostered the mindset which caused the countries to develop their ultra nationalistic views that drove them to war. If they died in disproportunate numbers then one might say those who sow then they reap!

Richard

Even the "evil tax man" should be reasonable, which certainly doesn't sound like the case here, and you cannot, as someone else has pointed, out make a blanket condemnation of "aristocrats" as causing the war.

Hazel

[Steven Broomfield]

The Maharajah of Jodhpur is listed on the Roll of Honour at Wellington College, Berkshire, but I haven't been able to find anything on his service or death.

Andrewr

Jodhpur is a Princely State to the south of the Punjab, south west of Delhi. It is largely a desert area and one of the Rajput States, the Rajput being the warrior caste of Hinduism. The city and fortress of Jodhpur was founded in 1459 by Rao Jodha, who gave it the name.

The Maharajah was 16 on the outbreak of war and the State was effectively overseen by his great-uncle , Lt Gen His Highness Sir Pertab (or Pratap) Singh KCSI. On the outbreak of war the State's army was put at the disposal of the Raj, and the Jodhpur Lancers were despatched very soon after the outbreak. It is said they were directed to Egypt but Sit Pertab refused to allow them to disembark so they were sent to Marseilles and joined the Indian forces in France. Sir Perttab, aged over 70, was not allowed to serve with them, to his disgust.

A note in Roly Grimshaw's Indian Cavalry Officer, 1914-15 says this of Sir Pertab:

"At the age of 70 he had come to France with his own regiment ... accompanied by his nephew the 16 year-old Maharajah. He was the doyen of the Indian fighting Princes - brave, chivalrous, a great sportsman and personal friend of the King. His reputation in India was legendary and his influence on the morale of Indian troops immense, Sir Pertab always wore the brooch which Queen Victoria had given him. It had her portrait set in pearls and was a symbol of his loyalty. The British monarchy had no truer friend and the British Empire no more dedicated ally than him."

Sir Pertab was Colonel of Grimshaw's regiment, the 34th (PAO) Poona Horse, which contained two Squadrons of Rathore Rajputs, largely recruited from the Jodhpur area (Rathores making very good cavalrymen).

Sir Pertab served on the Western Front until 1918, when the Indian Cavalry were sent to Palestine. His great-nephew had served on Sir Pertab's staff and accompanied him to Palestine. (Incidentally, the Jodhpur Lancers continued to serve, and their CO, Lt Col Thakar Dalpat Singh, won an MC for attacking Turkish machine guns accompanied only by his trumpet major, and was later killed leading his regiment). Sir Pertab, in the exploitation after the Turkish line was broken, stayed with his men and at one point spent 30 hours in the saddle: his legs had been broken so many times that dismounting and mounting were too painful!

The Maharajah returned home to be married and died suddenly and unexpectedly, Sir Pertab returning to Jodhpur to take over as Regent. Sir Pertab died in the early 20's.

I am afraid the Maharajah is a little shadowy: Sir Pertab was the power behind the throne, and was, truly, a legend to his men and to the Empire; Jodhpur was one of the most loyal of the Princely States.

[dycer]

I thought death duties were not payable in cases of deaths in action. Is this my imagination or something from WW2?

Ian

Ian,

I only answer your question from a "common point of view".

My "common ancestor", killed in action ,March 1918,accounts were settled on 16th October 1928.

The first charge being Estate Duty and interest accruing between 1st May 1918 and date of settlement.

George