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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

royalty in world war one


Edward

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I've been looking at some members of royalty killed during the war and I was curious as to the extent of the losses suffered by nobles and royalty as such.

The opening post did mention the nobility too, Terry - perhaps unfortunately as, being so much more numerous, they have inevitably come to dominate the thread. However, beyond well known personalities, and especially when we get to continental royalty/nobility, I think that even the editor of Debrett's might be pushed to tell us, off the top of his head, who was definitely royal and who was merely noble.

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Siege Gunner

Thanks for that. I took the cue from the first part of the post, there is a distinct difference between the two though, but I will not argue the point. All I would say is that the numbers are different when you consider the difference between royalty, the aristocracy, and the (relatively) newly enobled , who gained their titles from the industrial revolution and in some cases as press barons. A complex subject which requires which requires some thought I believe.

TR

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Heinrich Prinz von Bayern. (of the Wittelsbach Royal Family) Born 24 June 1884; KIA in Romania on 8 Nov 1916 when in command of the Royal Bavarian Infanterie-Leib-Regiment.

Jack

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In addition to 'categories of ' of nobility as has been preivous mentioned, a complex thing given the historical distinction, on the continent between the 'nobility of the sword ' and the 'nobility of the robe' (feudal military versus bureacratic sometimes equated with the difference between 'aristocratic' and 'noble') dating back to the 15/16 centuries. Then in countries like France you have in addition the nobility created by the French kings before the revolution, Napoleonic nobles, nobles made during the restoration, Orleanist nobles and then more Napoleonic ones! In Germany you have a similar situation with nobles from each 'state' spread over a similar range of categories.The nineteenth century saw the creation of many nobles from successful businessmen- similar in concept to the nobles of the robe originally although, as new creations, somewhat less prestigous. Rothschilds and Krupps spring to mind. The Rothschilds holding a variety of titles with different origins depending on which branch of the family and country they came from! To add to the general confusion the continental practice is often not to pass titles to the oldest son but to award them to all the sons leading to a number of titles in any given generation.In places like Hungary you have people who are effectively peasants in terms of wealth and occupation but hold themselves noble. In Russia another system again since every noble , as in the Turkish system , was a servant of the Tsar and a from of service but not feudal nobility existed

Potentially many thousands of nobles to consider in relation to the First World War!

Greg

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Captain The Hon. Arthur Edward Bruce O'Neill, 2nd Life Guards was killed near Ypres on 6th Nov 1914, was the Member of Parliament for Mid-Antrim and the first M.P. to be killed during the Great War.

Perhaps, in those days, they thought that MPs, who`d got us into the war in the first place, were duty bound to do their bit? Most honourable!

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...The nineteenth century saw the creation of many nobles from successful businessmen- similar in concept to the nobles of the robe originally although, as new creations, somewhat less prestigous...

This did not only happen in the nineteenth century: William de la Pole a merchant and finacier in the forteenth century was knighted. Merchants and finaciers in the UK were regularly so rewarded in the centuries that followed.

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QUOTE (Phil_B @ Dec 21 2009, 11:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Perhaps, in those days, they thought that MPs, who`d got us into the war in the first place, were duty bound to do their bit? Most honourable!

This is hardly a new revelation to anyone who studies the period or even reads this forum. There have been several contributions here to threads about the war service of MPs and also discussions about specific Members of both Houses of Parliament such as the Duke of Westminster and WSL Churchill to mention one from each.

Btw Germany invading Belgium got us into the war in the first place.

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Are we saying, gents, that the cabinet could have agreed the Belgian neutrality pact and taken us to war against the wishes of the bulk of MPs?

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There are several threads to do with going to war, which are not discussing the nobility and royalty. I thought that was the theme of this thread - not MPs. I referred to the Duke of Westminster and WSL Churchill as the former was definitely nobility, whist Churchill was the scion of a ducal family.

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To add to what Jack said this is the list that I have:

Prince Heinrich of Bavaria - KIA Monte Sule, Transylvania 8 Nov. 1916(German)



Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Hesse - d. of wounds received in action near Kara (Kurm) Orman, Dobroudja, Roumania 12/13 Sept. 1916(German)



Prince Maximilian of Hesse- d. of wounds received in action at Saint-Jean-Chappelle, near Bailleul, France 13 Oct. 1914(German)



Prince Umberto of Savoy, Count of Salemi- KIA Crespano del Grapfen 19 Oct. 1918 (Italian)



Prince Heinrich of Liechtenstein - d. of wounds received in action at Warsaw 16 Aug. 1915 (served in Austrian Army)



Prince Ernst of Lippe- KIA Villiers-les-Guise, near St-Quentin, France 28 Aug. 1914(German)



Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Lippe- KIA Liege, Belgium 6 Aug. 1914 (oldest royal killed, age 56 and also first to be killed )(German)



Prince Friedrich Karl of Prussia -KIA St-Bouvray, near Rouen, France 6 April 1917(German)



Prince Heinrich XLI Reuss - KIA Bivolita, Roumania 29 Nov. 1916(German)



Prince Heinrich XLIV Reuss- d. of wounds received in action at Laon at Glochau 29 Oct. 1918 (German)



Prince Heinrich XLVI Reuss(brother of above) - KIA (at the battle of La Bassée, Belgium 20 Oct. 1914(German)



Prince Heinrich XXXVIII Reuss-- KIA Ligny, near Brabant-sur-Meuse, Belgium 22 Mar. 1918(German) 



Prince Oleg Constantinovitch - d. of wounds received in action (while in a cavalry charge against 
the Germans) at Vilna 12 Oct.1914 (Russian)



Prince Ernst of Saxe-Meiningen - KIA Maubeuge, Nord, France 27 Aug. 1914(German)



Prince Friedrich of Saxe-Meiningen (father of above)- kia Tarcienne, near Charleroi, Belgium 23 Aug. 1914 (the only father/son duo to be killed)(German)



Prince Albert of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach - KIA Gouzeaucourt, Nord, France 9 Sept. 1918)(German)



Prince Wolrad Friedrich of Waldeck and Pyrmont - KIA Moorslede, Belgium 17 Oct. 1914(German) 
picture---

wolrad_waldeck.jpg

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I ought to have guessed that Joe would have the full list and waited until he came along. Very useful compilation Joe, many thanks. A couple of things strike me. 1. It must have been mighty confusing when the Reuss family had a get-together. Hallo Heinrich! - Ja? Ja? Ja? Ja? etc etc. 2. I must have served with a descendant of Wolrad Friedrich, who was a Lt Col in the Bundewehr when I was in Berlin. Fortunately he only called himself 'Waldeck' over the phone. Finally I can do you a picture of Heinrich of Bavaria if anyone is interested.

Jack

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I ought to have guessed that Joe would have the full list and waited until he came along. Very useful compilation Joe, many thanks. A couple of things strike me. 1. It must have been mighty confusing when the Reuss family had a get-together. Hallo Heinrich! - Ja? Ja? Ja? Ja? etc etc. 2. I must have served with a descendant of Wolrad Friedrich, who was a Lt Col in the Bundewehr when I was in Berlin. Fortunately he only called himself 'Waldeck' over the phone. Finally I can do you a picture of Heinrich of Bavaria if anyone is interested.

Jack

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Jack,

Thank you. I do not know if this list is entirely complete. I think so but it really depends on how deep you want to go. I agree with your comments about Heinrich there was another family that used various forms of Gunther. Somehow I think they fell out of the practice and it was not quite nearly as regulated nor two lines of a family. Yet another picture!

cpsaxe_meinegin.jpg

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Surely Heinrich was the name taken on taking the throne? In WWI Prince Albert, Duke of York, served in the Royal Navy however; on ascending the throne he was known as George VI.

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Actually no it did not work that way. There are so many different ways of doing business than the generally accepted method I grew up with in sort of the British mode. Imperial Germany was significantly different. Here is a quote from page 94 of the Handbook of Imperial Germany:

The princely family of Reuss had the unique custom of naming all its male members Heinrich, in honor of the Holy Roman Emperor Heinrich VI, from whom they received their lands in the 13th century. A complicated system of numbering was developed into two different forms:

It got far more confusing because there are actually two independent sovereign countries called Reuss. Designated as older line and younger line they were really completely different entities and each had the same number of votes in the Bundesrat and the Reichstag. While they both used the Heinrich custom they had completely different numbering systems. The confusion gets more interesting with the more independent states that you deal with and the nobility of each. This constituted an entire chapter in the Handbook of Imperial Germany and believe it or not my little lecture on royal gossip is really received well here in Texas. Lots of weird things and lots of scandal!

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We also have Leopold Charles Edward George Albert Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha 19 July 1884 – 6 March 1954. Was Duke of Albany (until deprived of his title by Order in Council following Royal Assent to the Titles Deprivation Act 1917.

Grandson of of Victoria Regina and Imperitix and sister of HRH Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone.

He held a commission as a general in the German Army(though I cannot remember in what capacity - not a field command).

Notable highlights of later life were avid support of Adolf Hitler, Obergruppenführer in the SA, Head of German Red Cross, Member of the Reichstag 1937-45, attended the funeral of King George V in his SA uniform, one son killed in the Luftwaffe, went through the "denazification" process, etc.

Interesting program on him on BBC-4 in 2008 (and on the Australian Broadcasting Corporation last night!)

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Joe;

Thinking of a princely German family who had their own sovereign country, but which lost their sovereignty, but not their land, in the Napoleonic turmoil. Would the princes in the family be considered "royalty" after the loss of sovereignty, but while Germany was still a monarchy? What about Hohenzollerns today? I suspect that no one in Germany today can be legally considered "nobility" or "royalty". I understand that, recently, some Germans of royal decent have legally changed their names to include their (former) royal title, so that they can use it.

Bob Lembke

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Hey Bob Merry Christmas!

The entire who was on first base as royalty was really confused as we moved from the Holy Roman Empire towards Imperial Germany. Napoleon came along and confused the issue. The basic tool in determining "royalty" was supposed to be annual book called the Gotha. So it's depended if you were in the book or not. It gets even more confusing. Here is a quote from the Handbook of Imperial Germany.

Nobility belonged to the Adelstand, which was divided into Uradel, or "old" nobility and Briefadel, or "patent nobility” (commoners elevated into the German nobility). Only a few German nobles could grant these patents. There were also various non-hereditary titles of nobility granted to members of certain orders. There were further subdivisions and a distinct pecking order such as Hochadel vs. niederer Adel (high nobility vs. lower nobility). Marriages were often considered unequal even though both parties came from noble families because they were from different levels of the nobility. Not everyone with a “von” in their name was noble. For the most part, if you wanted to differentiate noble families from the non-nobility, the "von" in noble names was abbreviated "v.," while it was left as "von" for non-nobles.41 Numerically, the aristocracy was a very small group consisting of between 15,000 and 17,000 families, many sharing a common last name.42

The current day royalty

has quite a following. As far as changing your name you could also "buy" a title such as the husband of ms. Gabor. A very wide subject for such a small group of people.

We also have Leopold Charles Edward George Albert Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha 19 July 1884 – 6 March 1954. Was Duke of Albany (until deprived of his title by Order in Council following Royal Assent to the Titles Deprivation Act 1917.

ed_sax_cfob_goth.jpg

Ernst II had no children, and the succession passed to the children of his brother Albert, the English prince consort of Queen Victoria. In 1855 his second son, Prince Alfred was declared heir to the duchy. When he died without sons in July 1900 the succession was renounced by the Duke of Connaught. Therefore, Saxe-Coburg passed to a nephew Charles Edward, Duke of Albany. This guy had a bad spell of luck and made some bad choices. He chose to come from England where he was the Duke of Albany at the age of 15 to become William's vassal. He didn't speak German. Was loyal to the Kaiser and was stripped of his British titles post WW1. After the war he became a staunch Nazi.

Did not die during the war however.

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  • 7 months later...

This thread went to sleep at Xmas, so it doesnt matter if nobody reads my bit.

Regarding Prince Albert (Duke of York) becoming King George VI rather than King Albert, I understood that following the death of Victoria's husband Prince Albert, there was some sort of understanding in the Royal family that nobody would ever become King Albert. I have a feeling that to add to the confusion Edward VIII (the one that abdicated) was known as Bertie and George VI was actually known as David.

Basically Royals are those who are called King or Queen XXX, and those called Prince or Princess YYY. ie the HM's and the HRH's.

Dukes, Earls, Viscounts, barons, baronets, knights etc are the aristos in descending order of rank. However there are always exceptions, thus in the UK the current Duke of Kent is a Royal, as is Duke of York (though the D of Y is also called Prince = Prince Andrew)

The Duke of Edinburgh aka Prince Philip is slightly different, as he was a Prince in the Greek Royal family and thus also part of the Danish Royal family.

But even though Princess Anne's children did not take any titles they would still be referred to in the media as being part of the Royal family, as are many opf the more distant cousins of the queen. Thus the informal convention in the UK is almost that you are still in the "Royal" club if you are descended from Edward VII.

In Germany the issue is of course complicated by all the (small) kingdoms and principalities that made up the German Empire at this time. So strictly speaking I suppose one should think of them as being Bavarian or Hessian Royals or whatever rather than "German". (When the Kaiser abdicated he abdicated the entire system so not only did he stop being Emperor, but all the others had to stop being Kings, Princes, etc even Barons. Some would argue that any titles used after that were simply honorary - hence the more recent habit of Germans to use titles that they can use such as all the Herr Doktors, Herr Proffessors, etc)

Having a "Von" in your name doesn't necessarily make you a German aristo. As with the Dutch "Van" or the French "de" it is often no more than an indication of where you came from dating back to the early days of having to create surnames.

I am simply a commoner, and simply proud enough to be the son of a man who served during the 14-18.

Alfred

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Are we saying, gents, that the cabinet could have agreed the Belgian neutrality pact and taken us to war against the wishes of the bulk of MPs?

Taken us to war, yes, but not sustained it. The House of Commons would have had to approve the necessary expenditure. IIRC the declaring of war is part of the Royal Prerogative, exercised of course only on the advice of Ministers.

Ron

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I have a feeling that to add to the confusion Edward VIII (the one that abdicated) was known as Bertie and George VI was actually known as David.

Sorry Alfred, but your feeling was mistaken here

King Edward VIII was known as David,

King George VI was Bertie

Their brothers were, Harry (the Duke of Gloucester) and George (the Duke of Kent [KiA during WWII])

Info from 'A King's Story' the memoirs of HRH the Duke of Windsor

But, alas, no clue there as to why Bertie chose to be King George and not King Albert

regards

Michael

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And not forgetting the youngest brother Prince John who died in 1919 (of an epileptic fit)

My father met The PofW and DofY informally during a free afternoon when he was MO with the 1/5 KORL while the 55th Div was stationed in Brussels after the Armistice. (My father always felt very angry with Mrs Simpson for what happened later, as he reckoned that in 1919 the Prince of Wales was a very decent bloke.) Rather than be a train-spotter I think my father used to count how many VIPs he bumped into: General's, Belgian and UK Royals, Ministers etc.

I have just read on a BBC webpage that Bertie was only Christened Albert because he was born on the anniversary of Prince Albert's death, his parents actually wanted to call him something else and one of his grandmother's hated the name Albert.

(Multiple first names are odd, but I know the feeling: I was christened Alfred, but am known by another of my first names, a phenomenon that occurs a lot in my family for some reason.)

Alfred

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But, alas, no clue there as to why Bertie chose to be King George and not King Albert

Probably inorder to emphasise continuity with his father's reign, after the disruption of the Abdication. King Edward VII was originally Albert Edward too: he may have chosen Edward as an existing Royal name, rather than choosing to be Albert I.

It has been said that our present P of W intends to be known as George VII rather than Charles III but we (or some of us) will know more about that in the fullness of time.

Ron

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